• Should Private Score Submissions Be Allowed? The Official TG Thread


    As we get closer and closer to rolling out the new submission and adjudication system, our collective Twin Galaxies thoughts begin to formulate an official decision regarding the allowance of individuals to submit score performances that are not for public view.

    Should private submissions be allowed?

    This is a topic that has been hotly discussed on many different sites/threads with lots of opinions offered - however there has never been an official Twin Galaxies thread created to serve as the formal and permanent public record of the pro/con argument. So here it is.

    It is important to know that the arguments for or against private performance submission that are written in this thread will be the only ones that will be given consideration in the final Twin Galaxies policy decision making on this matter. So if you have written elsewhere on this subject and not on TG, your voice unfortunately cannot be heard.

    For the people who are reading this thread who are not aware of the full scope of the issue, here it is described:

    Historically, previous eras of Twin Galaxies' ownership would evaluate the validity of a video game score performance by having a referee review the performance live or on video tape and make a determination.

    Generally speaking, there were some key disadvantages to having single individuals solely determine the validity of a performance -


    • A lack of transparency into the evaluation process which immediately created the ability for anyone who has submitted a score performance to accuse shenanigans if their score wasn't accepted, whether justified or not. This occasionally produced unhealthy drama and politics around the score submission process.


    • Singular human bias potentially having an influence on performance interpretation.


    • An inability to scale the adjudication capacity rapidly to meet growing incoming score submission demand.


    The new era of Twin Galaxies seeks to address the above issues by moving toward a qualified public/peer/community algorithm/equation adjudication system that is completely transparent in function and practice.

    All performances will be made public and be preserved for future reference and access, along with the particular discussion surrounding each adjudication so that the hows/whys of a validation decision can always be understood.

    While there are many advantages to the new upcoming system there are also some disadvantages when you compare it to the older era's historical practice of using a referee.

    One of those disadvantages is that the new system requires that all performances be public.

    So what is the potential problem with that you may ask…?


    The issue is that there are many top players who have invested a lot of time and energy into to discovering, learning, and mastering tricks/techniques/patterns that help them achieve winning scores and they do not want others to see their gameplay and simply be able to copy them.

    The feeling is that they put in all the work to make the discovery that gives them the advantage, and therefore they deserve to reap the rewards for that time investment.

    Freely giving their secrets away is not something that is of interest to them.


    So here is the challenge -

    The new system is all about transparency, public record, disclosure, and public discussion, all adding up to credible and documented scores being placed into the Twin Galaxies database after an adjudication. People who achieve within this construct are celebrated and rewarded by everyone and everyone can see the achievement with their own eyes.

    Adding the ability to submit a private performance, only to be reviewed by a private group or individual who then determine the validity of the performance would need to be a separate system. This private performance would not be made pubic ever, and there would be no posting of the adjudication discussion or publicly transparent record available for the future. Yet, the player who submitted privately would want the same recognition, celebration and rewards that someone would receive had they submitted publicly.

    A private system would however, protect a player's secrets.

    While TG could build an auxiliary private system the best that it can, it would have to be very similar to the older referee methods that previous eras of Twin Galaxies used to adjudicate scores - which means there is a potential to introduce previous era disadvantages.

    So, what do you think TG should do? Where do you stand on this issue? We want to hear from you.

    One additional question we would like to introduce is whether or not you would consider a private score on the same level as a public score? If TG had two separate adjudication systems operating, one for the community/heavily scrutinized score performance adjudication, and one for private, where essentially a "trusted ref" views a performance and says it's valid, would you consider the scores of equal value?

    In any case, this is the thread to once and for all be heard. Twin Galaxies will use this thread as an important reference before making a decision on this matter!

    97
    1. litox's Avatar
      litox -
      I'll give you the Fosbury flop. Dick Fosbury revolutionized the high jump by using a completely unorthodox jump technique no one ever used before. He participated in the 1968 Olympic games in Mexico, winning the gold medal against all of his competitors and in front of thousands of fans. Ever since then, every high jump athlete began using and evolving that technique. Other athletes perfected the technique and achieved higher jumps and new world records, but Fosbury is recognized as the pioneer of what has become the defacto technique for the high jump and he will always have that special place in Olympic history.

      If he kept his technique private, no one would have ever known, and he would have never been recognized, even if he sent videos or pictures of his jumps.and he wouldn't be able to claim anything because there was no public proof of his accomplishment.

      Fosbury practiced his technique secretly, and that's completely fair, but he proved his skill publicly, in front of an audience, following an official adjudication process and competing against his peers. That's how it is and should continue to be done, in every competitive type of event, period.

      http://youtu.be/Id4W6VA0uLc
    1. WCopeland's Avatar
      WCopeland -
      litox hit the nail right on the head, and it is for this exact reason that I do not hold hidden scores in as high of a regard as public scores.
    1. jammyyy's Avatar
      jammyyy -
      why? if people want there score to be privet why submit a score ? i say no fk that
    1. The_Pro's Avatar
      The_Pro -
      If you want a score recognized publicly the price is public verification. You can't demand the (usually non-existant) rewards from a community if you won't even allow them to judge the performance.

      The "many" players that would prefer this amount to <1%, call this an educated estimate. Of those 1% I'd wager the difficulty in figuring out most of these super secrets is highly overestimated. Spend a few hours figuring out a game pattern or a safe spot? Takes time, but not a unique skill. Let the community judge if they're impressed or not.

      Does any legitimate body for competitive gaming/sports allow anything of the sort? No, competitions are for everyone to see.

      I never post, I'm in an argumentative mood for some reason and I'll probably regret it later.
    1. jammyyy's Avatar
      jammyyy -
      ah a life with out regret speaking your mind no life at all , don't worry about it better to regret something you did do
      then something you didn't do :)
    1. pat33999's Avatar
      pat33999 -
      The gaming community at large has already chosen, and that choice is public verification. If TG is to regain any credibility at all and be relevant in the year 2014 (and beyond), there is no other option.
    1. Fly's Avatar
      Fly -
      I'll give you the Fosbury flop. Dick Fosbury revolutionized the high jump by using a completely unorthodox jump technique no one ever used before. He participated in the 1968 Olympic games in Mexico, winning the gold medal against all of his competitors and in front of thousands of fans. Ever since then, every high jump athlete began using and evolving that technique. Other athletes perfected the technique and achieved higher jumps and new world records, but Fosbury is recognized as the pioneer of what has become the defacto technique for the high jump and he will always have that special place in Olympic history.

      If he kept his technique private, no one would have ever known, and he would have never been recognized, even if he sent videos or pictures of his jumps.and he wouldn't be able to claim anything because there was no public proof of his accomplishment.

      Fosbury practiced his technique secretly, and that's completely fair, but he proved his skill publicly, in front of an audience, following an official adjudication process and competing against his peers. That's how it is and should continue to be done, in every competitive type of event, period.

      http://youtu.be/Id4W6VA0uLc
      Me being a Track & Field coach, I have to jump in and say the Flop wasn't possible some years before he did it. Rule changes are what made it possible later on. The landing area used to be saw dust, dirt or sand if you were lucky. Landing on the back of your neck after a 7ft HJ could have been fatal.

      I still think your reason for using this technique as an example is a really good one though. Practice in private and show your stuff in public.

      I've always been on the fence on this subject. I have no problem showing my stuff. But I also understand why others don't want to. How in the world would TG verify a score that someone wants the techniques used to be private. They don't want to charge money for a verification, but the whole private thing would be just like the old TG.

      Hector
    1. datagod's Avatar
      datagod -
      (I thought I commented on this already, seems to have disappeared)

      I say "no" to private performances. Could you imagine if at an Olympic event everyone except for the judges had to close their eyes while an athlete made their attempt? Or if an entire country phoned in their times for a marathon? It would not go over well.

      If you don't allow others to review your performance, then you shouldn't be seeking public recognition.
    1. erockbrox's Avatar
      erockbrox -
      To be honest there are pros and cons to each side.

      When I first came here I decided to allow all my inps to be open, but after getting beat several times after posting my scores I decided to make them private. It really does take lots of time and research to produce top scores especially world record scores. When you have done lots of work and have pioneered something new it kind of feels, well............ it feels like your being cheated in some way if all of your hard work is just used against you by your competitors.

      If it weren't a competitive thing then sure post my work such as when writing a book. If you write a book you publish it and then everyone can read it. No problems here since its something original and nobody can really copy it. This is why they have copyright laws by the way.

      But in the realm of video game world records everyone is competing for the exact same goal. So your work is subject to being used against you.

      In the high jump video that was posted earlier Dick Fosbury was a pioneer and came up with a new technique for jumping. This is now the standard technique and everyone uses it. So lets look at this situation further.

      If Dick kept his technique secret then maybe he might even have the world record for the high jump today. You could argue that if you want to beat him then you should also have to be a pioneer and invent new techniques on your own too. Some people may not be the best at jumping, but they are good at coming up with new ways to jump.

      In the Olympics of course you can't keep something private, its almost like a sports event. People come to watch and be entertained and people also PAY money to watch. Even though Dick Fosbury exposed his new technique in front of everyone, because there is such a large audience he does indeed go down in the history books as being a pioneer. So even though he may not have the world record in the high jump, he does have the recognition for his work.

      This situation is quite different in the video game world. In the video game world, video games come in all shapes and sizes. For example, what if there were a video game which required almost no skill to get a maximum score on it. Lets say that all the player had to do was hit a series of button combinations in a certain order like a pattern and once this is done the game is over and you then have the top score.

      So in this game the skill is not in hitting the button combination correctly, but rather its discovering the button combination correctly. If you release the video game footage then almost anyone else can easily do it and get the same score. So by keeping the footage private that's really the only way to rank skill on this particular game. In other words, do you have the skill to figure it out?

      Not all games are like this, but some are. Many scores I've done really are just me following my own set of instructions that I've already preplanned. I almost want to say it feels like 90% is figuring out how I'm doing to set the record and planning it all out and then 10% is the actual execution. If you don't plan out the score ahead of time it doesn't really matter how many times you try to execute it, if the ideas aren't there to score you the big points then they typically aren't going to happen on the fly while playing.

      Of course not all games require top notch planning to set world records on. On some space shooting like games I just hit the shoot button like a mad man and hope that i just blast everything on the screen away. In those types of games its more about skill than preparation.

      But here is the thing, so lets say that someone does invent a new technique and its released to the public and now everyone who plays that game now uses it. So what happens now? Well probably some of the players on that title will probably start using the new technique and maybe possibly they will beat the original person who came up with the new technique. So what did the person who pioneered something new gain? Maybe recognition from a few select players and that's it.

      Thousands are people aren't going to watch the event like in Dick Fosbury case, so recognition is low. In fact most people wouldn't even pay to watch someones video game scores.

      Another thing to consider is that the video game world does not act like the real world. What I mean by this is that sometimes there are glitches or hidden secrets or other crazy things that might not even make sense and yet they are rules within in the game which you use to better your score.

      For example on this one game you only get 3 lives and that's it. However, there is this one extra life you can get that exists on a later stage and its hidden big time. In fact it was so hidden that I had been playing the game for years and never even knew it was there. That one extra life makes a BIG difference in the game. It's what gives one person a huge advantage over another. So by releasing the game play footage you then expose hidden secrets of the game.

      This is different from Dick's case because a real person can't just find a secret in real life that makes him jump 5 times higher than normal. But in the video game world this is completely possible!

      And the big question is...

      If TG does indeed release game play footage then will they release everything or just the top scores. There maybe too much footage to release. Remember the Asteroids record that was 60 hours? That's a lot of footage for just one game, but I guess that's where youtube comes into play! :)

      And what about past footage and inp recordings are those also made available?

      I was for open footage for a while then I was against open footage and now I just don't' really care. I have to focus on graduate school now and probably won't be doing too many scores in the future.

      Sometimes I feel silly asking for the footage to be kept private, but if you really are a competitive player then that's exactly what you should do.
    1. erockbrox's Avatar
      erockbrox -
      To be honest there are pros and cons to each side.

      When I first came here I decided to allow all my inps to be open, but after getting beat several times after posting my scores I decided to make them private. It really does take lots of time and research to produce top scores especially world record scores. When you have done lots of work and have pioneered something new it kind of feels, well............ it feels like your being cheated in some way if all of your hard work is just used against you by your competitors.

      If it weren't a competitive thing then sure post my work such as when writing a book. If you write a book you publish it and then everyone can read it. No problems here since its something original and nobody can really copy it. This is why they have copyright laws by the way.

      But in the realm of video game world records everyone is competing for the exact same goal. So your work is subject to being used against you.

      In the high jump video that was posted earlier Dick Fosbury was a pioneer and came up with a new technique for jumping. This is now the standard technique and everyone uses it. So lets look at this situation further.

      If Dick kept his technique secret then maybe he might even have the world record for the high jump today. You could argue that if you want to beat him then you should also have to be a pioneer and invent new techniques on your own too. Some people may not be the best at jumping, but they are good at coming up with new ways to jump.

      In the Olympics of course you can't keep something private, its almost like a sports event. People come to watch and be entertained and people also PAY money to watch. Even though Dick Fosbury exposed his new technique in front of everyone, because there is such a large audience he does indeed go down in the history books as being a pioneer. So even though he may not have the world record in the high jump, he does have the recognition for his work.

      This situation is quite different in the video game world. In the video game world, video games come in all shapes and sizes. For example, what if there were a video game which required almost no skill to get a maximum score on it. Lets say that all the player had to do was hit a series of button combinations in a certain order like a pattern and once this is done the game is over and you then have the top score.

      So in this game the skill is not in hitting the button combination correctly, but rather its discovering the button combination correctly. If you release the video game footage then almost anyone else can easily do it and get the same score. So by keeping the footage private that's really the only way to rank skill on this particular game. In other words, do you have the skill to figure it out?

      Not all games are like this, but some are. Many scores I've done really are just me following my own set of instructions that I've already preplanned. I almost want to say it feels like 90% is figuring out how I'm doing to set the record and planning it all out and then 10% is the actual execution. If you don't plan out the score ahead of time it doesn't really matter how many times you try to execute it, if the ideas aren't there to score you the big points then they typically aren't going to happen on the fly while playing.

      Of course not all games require top notch planning to set world records on. On some space shooting like games I just hit the shoot button like a mad man and hope that i just blast everything on the screen away. In those types of games its more about skill than preparation.

      But here is the thing, so lets say that someone does invent a new technique and its released to the public and now everyone who plays that game now uses it. So what happens now? Well probably some of the players on that title will probably start using the new technique and maybe possibly they will beat the original person who came up with the new technique. So what did the person who pioneered something new gain? Maybe recognition from a few select players and that's it.

      Thousands are people aren't going to watch the event like in Dick Fosbury case, so recognition is low. In fact most people wouldn't even pay to watch someones video game scores.

      Another thing to consider is that the video game world does not act like the real world. What I mean by this is that sometimes there are glitches or hidden secrets or other crazy things that might not even make sense and yet they are rules within in the game which you use to better your score.

      For example on this one game you only get 3 lives and that's it. However, there is this one extra life you can get that exists on a later stage and its hidden big time. In fact it was so hidden that I had been playing the game for years and never even knew it was there. That one extra life makes a BIG difference in the game. It's what gives one person a huge advantage over another. So by releasing the game play footage you then expose hidden secrets of the game.

      This is different from Dick's case because a real person can't just find a secret in real life that makes him jump 5 times higher than normal. But in the video game world this is completely possible!

      And the big question is...

      If TG does indeed release game play footage then will they release everything or just the top scores. There maybe too much footage to release. Remember the Asteroids record that was 60 hours? That's a lot of footage for just one game, but I guess that's where youtube comes into play! :)

      And what about past footage and inp recordings are those also made available?

      I was for open footage for a while then I was against open footage and now I just don't' really care. I have to focus on graduate school now and probably won't be doing too many scores in the future.

      Sometimes I feel silly asking for the footage to be kept private, but if you really are a competitive player then that's exactly what you should do.
    1. The_Pro's Avatar
      The_Pro -
      As a competitive player I feel the opposite way. If I won because I found some crazy secret either by accident or because I have way more free time than the other guy, I wouldn't feel good about the win at all.
    1. JNugent's Avatar
      JNugent -
      In regards to any and all score submissions in the current incarnation of Twin Galaxies, I support the position that anything less than 100% transparency is unacceptable. All .inp files for MAME records, and all video footage of any record on any and all platforms have to be made public in order for TG to attain the credibility it desires with the public.
    1. d3scride's Avatar
      d3scride -
      If people want to be publicly recognized for their records/accomplishments then their records need to be accessible to all plain and simple. I get if you have a technique that you don't want others copying, then just don't submit and you and only you will know that you have the better score. Open competition improves the overall quality of scores.
    1. gstrain's Avatar
      gstrain -
      TG needs 100% transparency on score submissions. We must learn our lesson from the fake scores of the 80's, the abundance of incorrect verifications that are easy to find in the confirmed TG MAME scores that already do have public replays and doubtless happened many times on all platforms, and accusations of "insider vs. outsider" scores being held to different verification standards as shown to the whole world in King of Kong. For TG to regain credibility, the validity of new scores must be assured.

      If you want to brag to a friend or two about your score, feel free to show only them your play or even keep it to yourself. If you want to compete on a global stage, you have to be willing to climb up on that stage and show the world what you've got. Players that would submit secret performances are (with a few exceptions) weak players, cowards and cheats.

      -George Strain
    1. Shahbaz's Avatar
      Shahbaz -
      hmmm.... the issue is for those players who discover / invent new techniques and dont want to show to the world in only that case they will be defeated. In my opinion, they must need reward/title like "inventor" for all time. Because their records are free for public and they want only their names to be shine.

      This title of "inventor" will push other players to find or discover the new techniques, secrets to improve the score in competition. Nothing Else.

      To give the title to the player, there should be a discussion in a particular thread in front of the public to decide to give him a name of "inventor" or not.

      Otherwise i dont think if someone discover something new in his game and show to the public/world for FREE.

      One thing, because TG has special settings instead of default in many games.
    1. datagod's Avatar
      datagod -
      One more point: private performances would have to be reviewed by a TG staff member. This can and will lead to accusations of favoritism, sand bagging, etc. Also, what if the referee wants to compete on this very same title, but they learn techqniques from the private review?

      Public performances -- and the entire adjudication process Jace hinted at previously -- in my opinion is the only way we can move forward.

      "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -- Spock
    1. Blastaar's Avatar
      Blastaar -
      One more point: private performances would have to be reviewed by a TG staff member. This can and will lead to accusations of favoritism, sand bagging, etc. Also, what if the referee wants to compete on this very same title, but they learn techqniques from the private review?

      Public performances -- and the entire adjudication process Jace hinted at previously -- in my opinion is the only way we can move forward.

      "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -- Spock
      "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana

      With all the lip service that Jace has paid lately to transparency, it is disheartening that this discussion is even taking place.
    1. d3scride's Avatar
      d3scride -
      ...With all the lip service that Jace has paid lately to transparency, it is disheartening that this discussion is even taking place.
      This^^ I mean I thought it was pretty clear in the beginning that nothing short of 100% transparency would be acceptable.
    1. ***PL***'s Avatar
      ***PL*** -
      I believe a "grandfather" rule must be allowed. If a player has ever submitted a video that was accepted without controversy or challenged at any point for whatever reason, that player should still have an option to continue under possibly NEW Video Submission rules and keep the performance private.

      You could strengthen the rule by stating that only video games previously submitted by video can continue to be submitted in the future as video under stricter rules and that the first video had to have been submitted at least 5 years ago. Perhaps, the prior score had to be published by a third-party source such as a WR book like Guinness. If you do not meet all this criteria at a certain point in time, say Jan 2015, then you will never be able to submit videos and are not "grandfathered" in.

      You could ask that players request eligibility. Also, once granted, you could charge a high price for private verification service. Three refs can review and collaborate, then simple majority could rule on any issues and final confirmation and acceptance. There could also be a rule that states the video eventually must be a world record for a non-trivial, arcade only game, to avoid wasting everyone's time.
    1. 1500points's Avatar
      1500points -
      the privacy factor only applies to a handful of select game titles, or no?
      games where it requires a specific finesse or strategy to optimize the score?

      for example, Defender marathon or extreme settings. Watch all you want as much as you want, until many hours of practice are spent it is impossible to replicate the globalized thinking strategies involved in making movement/firing choices.

      on the other side of that coin is the Defender tournament settings, the top score was private, caused lots of controversy, TG side wasn't forthcoming on details. and when it's all said and done, turns out it was done via plain old baiter hunting, a master skill known by all highly skilled players as a novelty.

      with so many competent scoreboards online that all support public viewable play, like MARP for one, I guess you would have to decide what TG can cater to in order to stand out in a crowd.

      the people that hide gameplay and never play publicly, UNLIKE Master Hector, well those folks can never achieve true leadership of the title. Hector is a great example of world record level gaming leadership for this particular topic as TG tries to move forward and "be relevant"
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