STATE OF THE GALAXIES 2/27/15

About the speedrun discussion made in this episode...

Jace talking about that a glitched run and non-glitched run has their own skillset is practically what I've been trying to explain why we have different categories of speedrunning a game. There are many ways to play a game, many which are designed by the game. Such as an any% category in Super Metroid compared to getting all items. Both require their own skillset and are tracked in two seperate leaderboards. For example Ocarina of Time, we dont' have one person that is the best at the game, you can't track it like that. It's the best person and this and that category. Who is the best atheltic runner, the one who can run 100m, 400m or 10000m? You can't decide "who is the best at running".
Twin Galaxies already have seperated tracks for a single game, which is a good thing. You can't have as the goal that "Person X is the best at game Y". This is has never been the case in sports and has never been the case for speedrunning either. You should obviously not have an endless amount of categories for this. It should be decided what the runners themselves want to be tracker, what they have agreed on as a community that are the most sense-making categories to have. And that people actually want to make attempts of.

Whenever you talk about GWR, how they may or may not want a glitched runs in their books. I suggest you actually read the Gamer's Edition... It, as well as the main Guinness Book of World Records, has runs that aren't verified by TG, that aren't neccesarly following the rules of TG and that are using glitches. Such as: "Regular speed-runner Cosmo Wright set the any-percentage record for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (non-tool-assisted) by completing it in 18 min 32 sec". You also have the 4:57.69 Super Mario Bros. run in here, which was even done on an emulator. Most, if not all, of the speedruns in this book are taken from the speedrunning communities (not TG). The introduction text on the Speed-Runs page even mentions the use of glitches being a part of it: "Then find all the bugs and glitches that allow you to do it even quicker".

So why is it that TG aren't recognized for these achievements when you keep saying/bragging about being the #1 place for gaming achievements, when, according to GWR, you aren't?

In conclusion, I don't think any changes TG make will have the speedrunning community to gather here. We have an established community from many years ago, we have the runners which decide the rules and compete against eachother, we have the game discussions that don't even exist on TG, we have everything we need. Submitting a run to Twin Galaxies won't give us anything new, coming here won't increase our enjoyment in speedrunning, submitting here won't give us a higher chance of getting into the Gamer's Edition, if that is what the person wants. There is just no purpose for our runs to be hosted here and there is no real reason for Twin Galaxies to try to compete with us on the matter. It won't help you, it won't help us, it won't help anyone.

Thanks.
Clarifications please
--you mentioned that emulation won't be supported which will be left to places like RetroUprising. Does that mean MAME submissions are no longer going to be supported here?

--you mentioned it is OK if a banned member creates a new account and comes back under a different name. Did you really mean that? I presume not so clarification please. Sounds like the beginnings of a "Sybil" community. :)

Just an idea to boost even more participation...

If new track requests are going to be costly, which is respectable, maybe reward members with some incentives or bonuses.
Eg. - A "50 submission pt. bonus" if a member surpasses 2000 credibility and/or 200 submission points. 75 more sub pts. if a member surpasses 3000 credibility/300 submission pts. etc.

Action like this would create even more motivating action!

I got the distinct impression that TG doesn't actually want new tracks: the new track requests is to impose a barrier (massive submission points) to creating the very thing the new feature is intended to be for?! All that to avoid empty tracks?! Why not reward up-front examples of submissions to ensure the track is not empty by turning those examples into the innaugural entry if/when they are accepted and cut the amount of points required for the supplied example?

One down-side to the requirement for "expensive" new tracks will be the perception that adjudicating must be done in large swathes to earn the points required to push them through. With such a perception, the quality of the adjudication is ignored: only the quantity of correct adjudication (which is already easy to guess almost everything as "Accept") becomes a factor in pushing through new tracks.

Mark: I'm pretty sure Jace didn't mean MAME is going away - I think he meant playing the game THROUGH the website, like they do at RetroUprising, isn't going to happen.

Andrew: When Jace says "expensive" I'm guessing it's a relative term. If my memory serves, I got the impression it was something like 20 points to submit the track for adjudication and maybe 100 to push it through - including other people spending points to get it pushed through.

Hmm... that still does seem expensive though. Hopefully it will be less than that. Maybe 10 to submit and 50 to push it through? Although for Guitar Hero type games, that would still be a lot. Maybe for Guitar Hero games, it could be one overall track, with the sub-tracks being free or *****? Or maybe the more people that compete in a game, the cheaper additional tracks become?

Hmm... that still does seem expensive though. Hopefully it will be less than that. Maybe 10 to submit and 50 to push it through? Although for Guitar Hero type games, that would still be a lot. Maybe for Guitar Hero games, it could be one overall track, with the sub-tracks being free or *****? Or maybe the more people that compete in a game, the cheaper additional tracks become?

Yeah, there are other reaons too that spring to my mind. In terms of older consoles with the NTSC/PAL split I'm in a minority on the site: there are oodles of tracks which exist for NTSC but have no PAL counterpart yet. I wouldn't expect "NTSC" gamers to prop these up with their submission points which immediately puts the whole site back to being an american site and not truly international.

About the speedrun discussion made in this episode...

Whenever you talk about GWR, how they may or may not want a glitched runs in their books. I suggest you actually read the Gamer's Edition... It, as well as the main Guinness Book of World Records, has runs that aren't verified by TG, that aren't neccesarly following the rules of TG and that are using glitches. Such as: "Regular speed-runner Cosmo Wright set the any-percentage record for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (non-tool-assisted) by completing it in 18 min 32 sec". You also have the 4:57.69 Super Mario Bros. run in here, which was even done on an emulator. Most, if not all, of the speedruns in this book are taken from the speedrunning communities (not TG). The introduction text on the Speed-Runs page even mentions the use of glitches being a part of it: "Then find all the bugs and glitches that allow you to do it even quicker".

So why is it that TG aren't recognized for these achievements when you keep saying/bragging about being the #1 place for gaming achievements, when, according to GWR, you aren't?

In conclusion, I don't think any changes TG make will have the speedrunning community to gather here. We have an established community from many years ago, we have the runners which decide the rules and compete against eachother, we have the game discussions that don't even exist on TG, we have everything we need. Submitting a run to Twin Galaxies won't give us anything new, coming here won't increase our enjoyment in speedrunning, submitting here won't give us a higher chance of getting into the Gamer's Edition, if that is what the person wants. There is just no purpose for our runs to be hosted here and there is no real reason for Twin Galaxies to try to compete with us on the matter. It won't help you, it won't help us, it won't help anyone.

Hey Tompa,

Please understand that I speak with GWR regularly, and do not need to look at the various Gamer's Edition's to have some insight into GWR's future direction and interests. Most of the scores that go into GWR that are not TG related, are primarily because TG did not track those scores. Up until recently, TG had been physically unable to track everything under the sun and so GWR had to cast a wide net in order to capture gaming achievement across the board. This is totally understandable and logical.

However, as the new era of TG tracks more and more records and rankings, it becomes much easier for GWR to simply collect them from TG instead of spending valuable GWR resources to hunt everything down every year. So, the relationship between TG and GWR is very symbiotic and will naturally grow more and more comprehensive.

Aside from the GWR opportunity, there are many other reasons that a speedrunner might benefit from joining the community here and participating, however those reasons are currently non-obvious to anyone who does not know all the plans that TG has - so I can understand the sentiment you share.

I think when players start to realize things like there will be individual player statistics tracking, overall player athletic index computing, comparative player analysis cutting across genres, etc. etc. (just think about all the normal things you see in sports statistics and analysis in general) - I think speedrunners, and video game players overall will see a benefit to participating. It is these kinds of things that help drive and justify real awards and high profile competitive events that the mass audience can understand and appreciate, etc. It is all about quantification and presentation for the purposes of amplifying worldwide mass population appreciation of the talent and skills of the entire video gaming community.

Additionally, you will eventually see real world value generated by submissions and achievement. Imagine as a speed runner, if holding the #1 rank on a certain game guarantees you always receive 80% off any purchases made at Walmart or some other store. It's an interesting concept, and stuff like that becomes possible with the direction that TG is currently going.

Certainly, there no desire to or intention to affect the standing speedrunner community. Its great, and TG is happy for it to do what it does. All good. All TG will ever possibly intend to be is an additional option for speedrunners to show off their talents and be appreciated for it. It's 100% positive.

Speedrunners could submit to TG or not. It would be totally up to them! As I've always said, TG is about inclusiveness of gamers/players worldwide. It is the organization that is solely focused on lifting up video game culture by emphasizing and translating to the general public how/why achievement in video gaming is just as valid and valuable as any other sport achievement.

I hope that made sense.

-Jace

If submissions points can earn a good deal on the Chicken Teriyaki at Subway, then the future is indeed bright. :)

Thanks for clarification above.

I'm looking forward to the new score track stuff as it opens up communities that are currently outside TG and not actively participating in score chasing that they do amongst themselves.

PS-Out of curiosity I tried that online emulator at RetroUprising this week to see how the submissions work. It is easy but the browser interface introduces a lot of control lag. Neat concept but kinda sketchy on the gameplay enjoyment factor.

So it seems the cost is going to be somewhat large for creating new tracks...

If the creator(s) of the track are required to put up submission points to create each track, would it be possible to do something like award them submission points for every successful submission to that track? It would be almost like being investors in a track. If the track attracts a lot of submissions, then you are awarded appropriately. If not, then you are out your original "investment" of submission points.

Yeah, there are other reaons too that spring to my mind. In terms of older consoles with the NTSC/PAL split I'm in a minority on the site: there are oodles of tracks which exist for NTSC but have no PAL counterpart yet. I wouldn't expect "NTSC" gamers to prop these up with their submission points which immediately puts the whole site back to being an american site and not truly international.

I agree. Would you ever be up for something like merging NTSC/PAL, but having another column in the database table that states whether it was performed on an NTSC or PAL cartridge? I realize the games wouldn't be identical, but the region distinction would still allow them to be uniquely identified.

Thanks for the reply, Jace!

Yeah, I know that you obviously must have regular contact with GWR. It just hasn't been shown through any of the record books that you have some kind of agreement with them, as the books seem to ignore TG completely. I understand that it is indeed hard to track everything, something we basically have had a problem with in the speedrunning community too. Though which Speedrun.com plan to eventually become for speedruns. It doesn't really matter where the record is hosted, as long as the run is verified and legit, it is the record. No matter if it is on Speedemosarchive, Zeldaspeedruns, Twingalaxies, Cyberscore, Recordsetter etc.

Even if TG didn't track some of the times GWR put in the book, why ignore all of the times at TG? Why is it that GWR use the emulator record run of Super Mario Bros. with glitches you do not allow, when you have your own SMB record on the site? Technically, this makes perfect sense, as that SMB run is the fastest real time completion of the game, so it should be in the Book of Records. But it is not the record if you look at the place with the "Official Video Game World Records". That line means nothing at all in this case. I could just as well make my own site and say that my site is the official place for video game records. If you understand my point.

It would be very nice to have everything under the same roof however. To do this, everyone has to agree on the same terms. I want to see the fastest times, no matter who has the record. To do this, you need a community of players competiting against eachother, helping eachother to improve the time, game discussions etc. All of these are currently lacking at TG. You can change things around, to allow all records to be hosted here, but I imagine that the result will still be that you claim your times to be World Records, and the speedrun world will continue to be ignored from your side. It's going to be hard to convince people to come here, after the reputation of TG in the speedrun community and the many incidents in the past, even if you offer things like 80% off at Walmart.

What I could see working is some kind of cooperation between TG and the speedrun community. We have what TG lacks, you need us if you ever want to have a respected speedrun section on the site with times that are the actual records. What we don't have is the "Officialness" to it, which a few of us would be interested in. How this cooperation could look like, I currently don't have a good answer for. But that is what I would recommend for TG. You have a long way to regain respect and for people to care for you, more than the jokes a lot of us are currently making. Though this could be a step in the right direction.

Honestly, there's not point conjecturing what the speedrun community will or won't do at this point. It'll probably end up being a mix. Only time will tell.

I agree. Would you ever be up for something like merging NTSC/PAL, but having another column in the database table that states whether it was performed on an NTSC or PAL cartridge? I realize the games wouldn't be identical, but the region distinction would still allow them to be uniquely identified.

I've got no problem with that but there is a significantly large portion of the NTSC lot that perceive such mixing as a bad thing. It's not me that would need convincing. ;)

I've got no problem with that but there is a significantly large portion of the NTSC lot that perceive such mixing as a bad thing. It's not me that would need convincing. ;)

Yeah, some titles are SIGNIFICANTLY different. NES Tetris is very different, for instance, between NTSC and PAL.

Yeah, some titles are SIGNIFICANTLY different. NES Tetris is very different, for instance, between NTSC and PAL.

Speed is a tricky issue... Briefly, off the top of my head:

- Platforms that are slower in 50Hz territories (regardless of game): NES, SNES (both slower CPUs) and TurboGrafx-16 (slower crystal).
- Platforms that have absolutely no difference whatsoever in hardware: all handhelds (no TV standard to tie the refresh to), most computers (TV modulation being performed by "external" units), Sega Master System (poor game programming can slow down in 50Hz).
- Platforms natively capable of both 50Hz & 60Hz SD on European systems: Atari 2600, Sony PlayStation, Sega Dreamcast, Microsoft Xbox, Sony PlayStation 2, Nintendo Game Cube, Microsoft Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii.
- Platforms notably absent from being able to run 60Hz SD: Sony PlayStation 3 (but runs 60Hz HDMI).

Other platforms I can't remember or haven't found out.

Funny fact: Sega shipped re-badged 50Hz carts to America to make up numbers for Sonic The Hedgehog 2 on the Sega Master System. ;)

NB: "60Hz" means 59.9xxxx Hz in actuality.

If it aint broke, dont fix it. Merging NTSC and PAL together ??? Ah, NO!

If the platforms are exactly identical in play, they should be merged. Other than that, definitely not.

If the platforms are exactly identical in play, they should be merged. Other than that, definitely not.

... but not all games are identical in each territory. You're over-simplifying a bit like Guitar Hero/Rock Band players that see the names of difficulties & think they should be merged. ;)

Thanks for the reply, Jace!

Yeah, I know that you obviously must have regular contact with GWR. It just hasn't been shown through any of the record books that you have some kind of agreement with them, as the books seem to ignore TG completely. I understand that it is indeed hard to track everything, something we basically have had a problem with in the speedrunning community too. Though which Speedrun.com plan to eventually become for speedruns. It doesn't really matter where the record is hosted, as long as the run is verified and legit, it is the record. No matter if it is on Speedemosarchive, Zeldaspeedruns, Twingalaxies, Cyberscore, Recordsetter etc.

Even if TG didn't track some of the times GWR put in the book, why ignore all of the times at TG? Why is it that GWR use the emulator record run of Super Mario Bros. with glitches you do not allow, when you have your own SMB record on the site? Technically, this makes perfect sense, as that SMB run is the fastest real time completion of the game, so it should be in the Book of Records. But it is not the record if you look at the place with the "Official Video Game World Records". That line means nothing at all in this case. I could just as well make my own site and say that my site is the official place for video game records. If you understand my point.

It would be very nice to have everything under the same roof however. To do this, everyone has to agree on the same terms. I want to see the fastest times, no matter who has the record. To do this, you need a community of players competiting against eachother, helping eachother to improve the time, game discussions etc. All of these are currently lacking at TG. You can change things around, to allow all records to be hosted here, but I imagine that the result will still be that you claim your times to be World Records, and the speedrun world will continue to be ignored from your side. It's going to be hard to convince people to come here, after the reputation of TG in the speedrun community and the many incidents in the past, even if you offer things like 80% off at Walmart.

What I could see working is some kind of cooperation between TG and the speedrun community. We have what TG lacks, you need us if you ever want to have a respected speedrun section on the site with times that are the actual records. What we don't have is the "Officialness" to it, which a few of us would be interested in. How this cooperation could look like, I currently don't have a good answer for. But that is what I would recommend for TG. You have a long way to regain respect and for people to care for you, more than the jokes a lot of us are currently making. Though this could be a step in the right direction.

Hey Tompa,

Let me try to clear a few items up.

The reason that GWR books have not reflected a more comprehensive relationship with TG over the last few years, is because there really wasn't one. With the new era of TG, the GWR / TG relationship has been renewed and refreshed. It is also much more serious and focused. You will see this reveal itself over time. TG was never in a position to be able to acquire and provide GWR with across-the-board comprehensive gaming scores. Now it is in that position and over time it will grow. So while you are quite right in your current description of how things have been with GWR - please know that this will be evolving fairly quickly because it is driven by a business / resource dynamic.

I disagree with your sentiment that it doesn't really matter where a record is hosted. Different places use different methods of adjudicating their scores and those processes are not all equivalent to each other. For instance - as it currently stands only the new Twin Galaxies has a process that has been specifically designed from the ground up with GWR oversight and direct approval. When TG takes a score into its database now, GWR understands how and why it got there specifically.

This is not to say that other site's scores are lesser or invalid. I am just saying that they are not the same, and thus the scores are not simply interchangeable. Every performance coming into Twin Galaxies at this point should go through TGSAP no matter where it comes from. This ensures a consistent and fair process for all score database entries going forward.

I believe that players that are looking to have their video game achievements recognized will simply gravitate to the location that serves this need/desire the best - wherever that is. Beyond simply being a score database, you will be seeing Twin Galaxies continue to evolve into an entire social platform that is specifically focused on electronic athlete gaming achievement, and player recognition overall.

This is necessary to be able to elevate video game players to the same level as other professional sports players. The overall category of player achievement has been fractured for a long time and the result is that it is very hard for wide scale mass populace recognition to take place for video game players of any type/genre. There are too many small niches and no overall umbrella capturing the achievements and promoting/translating their significance to the world. This fracturing is what forever prevents things like a big Nike contract being commonplace for a speedrunner or classic world record holder. There are a ton of amazing video game enthusiasts out there who deserve appreciation. Twin Galaxies is focused on that mission. That's all.

From what you say above, TG may have mishandled how it worked with the speedrun community in the past and that is unfortunate. Certainly, TG today is only interested in cooperation with all player communities so that we can work together for the benefit of everyone involved in gaming achievement.

All TG can do is take things step by step.

Jace

Jace, you keep mentioned achievement and each time I read it I immediately think of Xbox 360/One Achievements, PS3/PS4 Trophies and Steam (PC) Acheivements. Does TG have any interest in tracking such achievements?