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TWIN GALAXIES
06-30-2017 at 12:01 PM


Dear Community,

The Dispute System is in its last phase of private testing and should be coming online soon.

As we all know this is going to generate a lot of conversation, some of which will be contentious. It is important that the discussions remain civil and as fact-based as possible.

In all regards, Twin Galaxies appreciates all interest from the community that chooses to take the time to help maintain the integrity of the score database!

Please always keep in mind that Twin Galaxies will view a dispute claim as a very serious matter, and deliberate abuse or misuse of this upcoming system will be met with a harsh administrative response.

And now to a partial preview -

A DISPUTE column will be added to the database, allowing every individual score in the to have a clickable link that will provide a dispute claim form to be filled out and submitted.

A member must have a minimum of 4000 Credibility Points to file a dispute claim. (This number is subject to change at admins discretion.)

Filling out this form represents a formal and very public claim made by you that this particular score in the Twin Galaxies database is invalid and that you have sufficient and objective evidence to support your claim.

Once you submit your dispute claim, it will be placed into the dispute voting area where the community will discuss, debate, potentially add further evidence or refute evidence provided, and vote on your claim.

All VERIFIED members can vote on a dispute claim once the claim has been established. There is no minimum CR requirement to vote.

Your claim will remain open until it achieves enough voting power to close the vote and trigger a score removal recommendation.

When a score removal recommendation is achieved, Twin Galaxies Admin will be notified (as well as all voters) and TG Admin will review all of the presented evidence and supporting discussion.

If after reviewing the evidence, Twin Galaxies Admin agrees with the removal recommendation, the disputed score will be removed.

Scores (and their associated dispute discussions) that have been removed will be placed into a separate area for reference. No information will be lost.

If after reviewing the evidence, Twin Galaxies Admin does not agree with the removal recommendation, the disputed score will not be removed, and the dispute claim will be reopened to allow it to continue to gather additional evidence and further votes until it triggers another score removal recommendation event.

The dispute claim voting / review process escalates indefinitely until a claim becomes compelling enough for Twin Galaxies Admin to agree and remove the score. The dispute claim can never go away.

To make sure that a dispute claim has the best chance of being successful it is important that the dispute provides as much objective and compelling evidence as possible.

Some very important items to note:

There is no CR / SP reward or penalty associated with the dispute system. For this part of TG, TG wants participants that are only interested in pursuit of database integrity for the betterment of all, and not necessarily for direct personal TG account gain.

TG will likely eventually display profile statistics regarding number of successful dispute claims accomplished.

Since a dispute conversation, once started, remains open forever until the score is removed, a database score with an active dispute essentially has the equivalent of an "asterix." This is a powerful thing and should be considered with care.

The "asterix factor" is one of the main reasons that only higher Credibility TG Members will be allowed to initiate dispute claims. TG feels that members with elevated CR have demonstrated an adjudication willingness to productively participate over a long period, and have shown a degree of care for the growth and well-being of Twin Galaxies.

TG also believes that higher CR members are less likely to initiate unwarranted dispute claims. TG will need to see if this belief is valid.

If a TG member who has less than 4000 CR wants to initiate a dispute claim, they simply can not. They must convince / ask a TG member with the required CR to file the claim and become responsible for starting that claim, then the lower CR member can vote on the claim and provide evidence.

**SPECIAL NOTE - Admin will typically be keeping a general eye on all dispute cases (whether notified or not) and there will be cases where a dispute is filed that has incontrovertible supportive evidence. In some of those cases, admin may automatically agree to the dispute claim and END THE DISPUTE VOTING PROCESS EARLY.

**These cases will likely be disputes involving technical site error correction or score submissions that mistakenly were accepted on improper tracks, (PAL vs. NTSC) etc. These cases may involve score removal OR moving a score to a proper category.


This process should be fairly straightforward.

For the first time since TG was created, score disputes will now be permanently tied to the scores themselves. So now not only the evidence and adjudication of a performance will stay with a score, but also any post adjudication dispute history of a score will stay too - essentially keeping ALL scores in the Twin Galaxies database under trackable, referential review.


Over time we believe that all these systems working together will be able to continually improve database integrity.

Once we activate the Dispute system, we will see how it goes and make any needed changes from there.

Thank you.

User comments (60)

Unregistered's Avatar

This sounds brilliant. The only thing i wonder about further details is you say with more evidence a second review can happen. That seems difficult to enforce. Whats stopping people from just immediately reopening without any real evidence, essentailly just nagging the admins?

Note, this isnt a complaint. I think you've provided everything I could ever want. In fact, a little too good to be true, so i'm wondering if that part is abused, if the rest of us will suffer and the whole system gets reworked or if you already have a plan for abuse.
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Bravo! Yes absolutely there will be some contentious conversation but I'd imagine the low hanging fruit will get picked first - those with an existing history of dispute and solid factual evidence to back it up. It may be better than we expect.

I would respectfully suggest a two strike system for abusing the dispute system. One preposterous dispute from a member and a warning is issued to that member. Another preposterous dispute from that member and their dispute privileges are revoked. I'm getting ahead of ourselves here, but the only real risky situation I see is someone childishly challenging all the scores that they see as impossible because they themselves can't justify how to achieve it.
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A) I like that TG gets the final say when assessing the evidence submitted. Successful disputes, after all, should speak for themselves.

B) Would TG reopen the dispute discussion themselves after the vote and assessment or would TG close an "unsuccessful" dispute and then it would reopen when an additional member disputes the same score? Discussion starter.
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C) Would someone be able to reopen a successful dispute if additional evidence were found? Like an appeal to overturn a successful dispute? Again, a discussion starter.
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Two words...Cant wait!!! :)
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Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
This sounds brilliant. The only thing i wonder about further details is you say with more evidence a second review can happen. That seems difficult to enforce. Whats stopping people from just immediately reopening without any real evidence, essentailly just nagging the admins?

Note, this isnt a complaint. I think you've provided everything I could ever want. In fact, a little too good to be true, so i'm wondering if that part is abused, if the rest of us will suffer and the whole system gets reworked or if you already have a plan for abuse.
A dispute once opened, can never be closed - unless the score is removed.

All that happens is this -

Dispute is opened
Voting takes place
Voting reaches a level where Admin is notified (at this point voting is stopped)
Admin makes a decision.
If Admin agrees, score is removed - dispute is over.
If Admin does not agree - same dispute thread is REOPENED to gather more votes/evidence. Once reopened dispute voting reaches the "next level" - Voting is stopped, admin is notified to make a decision - and the cycle keeps repeating.

Make sense?
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Thanks for the update. Makes sense. Looking forward to it.
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Makes sense. But it seems that it would be a good idea for there to be an option where the original disputer reads/learns additional information and realizes they have made a mistake and the dispute and asterix are removed. I believe that there will be cases where the disputed score will be proven to be good and there should be closure in those situations.
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Quote Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper
Makes sense. But it seems that it would be a good idea for there to be an option where the original disputer reads/learns additional information and realizes they have made a mistake and the dispute and asterix are removed. I believe that there will be cases where the disputed score will be proven to be good and there should be closure in those situations.
Whether a score is disputed or not, as long as it stands in the database it is considered valid.

Dispute threads can never be erased or removed. The fact is that the dispute happened.

If a score has a dispute all that means is that there is a discussion, it doesn't mean that the score is invalid.

All disputes are considered to be just commentary and additional score info until admin actually removes a score.

So if the person who initiates a dispute has made an error they can feel free to write that in the dispute file but nothing else needs to actually change.
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Devil's Advocate here but why would a dispute always stay open? Say someone disputes one of my scores, and I prove without a shred of doubt that it was real, why should that score stay permanently "marred" with a dispute claim for all eternity?
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All this sounds like a move in the right direction. Thanks for moving this forward and giving those with reasons for disputing records a channel to support their claim.

The process described so far makes sense to me. However, the workflow described leans toward an outcome enough 'yes' votes (majority / strong majority) to warrant a review and decision by an Administrator. If they agree, the score is removed and if not, the dispute remains open until more 'yes' votes trigger another administrative review.

What's not clear is what happens if the majority of voters don't agree with dispute. Does the process work the same in that enough 'no' votes trigger an Administrator review and decision. If the Administrator agrees that the dispute does not warrant the removal of the score (agrees with the community votes), shouldn't the outcome be that the dispute is closed and score remains in the database with or without the asterisk?
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4000 cr seems steep considering all of Patrick Scott Patterson's self entered and cheated scores, I really hope we have others step it up, and in all FAIRNESS jace, in a court of law ALL evidence needed should and has to be given for use, otherwise it's a mistrial all disclosure...

If you are gonna run this site like a court, you need to include all aspects even your attorney would agree with me, SO please release the OLD archives and Patricks PM's so we can challenge his scores and his status....

Because I know for a fact and so do you HE cheated
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Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall
There is no CR / SP reward or penalty associated with the dispute system.
Just to be clear here Jace, cred points will be redistributed in the events where incorrect adjudications took place, is that right?....for example the dig dug score was later found to be valid, so do those that voted yes get their cred points back and do those that voted no lose cred?


john

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At first I was thinking if everyone agrees they were wrong to dispute than the asterix should go but jace makes a good point about recording the history. Think above it if the dispute is removed then whatever led to the dispute in the first place may in the future rear it's ugly grad again and actually win if the people with the proof aren't around the second time but by leaving the dispute open future people can look and see why the dispute lost and hopefully be satisfied with the answer. I will add though of the dispute is unanimously rejected and thevscire declared good there probably should be some indication the dispute has been deemed unworthy. Maybe a different color for the text? Maybe "ongoing dispute" vs "resolved dispute"
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Talk about it in the Chat tonight on Settle It on the Screen LIVE!!!!!!!

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Quote Originally Posted by lexmark
Just to be clear here Jace, cred points will be redistributed in the events where incorrect adjudications took place, is that right?....for example the dig dug score was later found to be valid, so do those that voted yes get their cred points back and do those that voted no lose cred?


john

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Yes. TGSAP adjudications that get reversed will have all the associated CR calculations adjusted accordingly.
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Quote Originally Posted by swaggers
Devil's Advocate here but why would a dispute always stay open? Say someone disputes one of my scores, and I prove without a shred of doubt that it was real, why should that score stay permanently "marred" with a dispute claim for all eternity?
The dispute always stays open in order to prevent another user from creating an exact duplicate dispute.

If a dispute does not have enough evidence to warrant score removal, and without a shred of doubt the score remains valid, closing that dispute and removing it opens up the possibility for another member (who is unaware of the previous dispute) to raise the exact same dispute all over again. This approach would be problematic.

By leaving the dispute record where it is, any new member can read the current status and see all the information and then know that there is no need to raise an already raised issue that has been solved.

The dispute system helps support the idea that it is optimal to put the best evidence packages together for a score submission, as having solid believable evidence is the best way to avoid a future dispute claim.
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Just wanting to say I like the idea of the 4k cred to iniate a score removal discussion. Maybe all those loud dogs that bark a lot can get to voting on some submissions instead of just.. barking. And I mean ACTUALLY watching the videos too not just blindly clicking "yes".

I hope this really helps the submission queue.
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@Jace Hall. Would it be possible to challenge ones own personal score submission for removal. Eg. During the referee tenure, there was a typo entered, which incorrectly states my real score/time, or a correct score/time submitted to a wrong track.
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I would think that limiting the amount of challenges a person can do at one time would be necessary. I imagine that some people will go nuts and challenge almost every score on a track or challenge most of the scores of 1 player. If this allowed to happen we will have thousands of unfounded challenges clogging up the system. We have a little over 50 people that will be able to challenge a score. How many challenges should be allowed at one time. Once the system is open there will be a flood of challenges and we will be overwhelmed quickly. There's going to be a lot of scores that will be contested early on. I would hope that we spread them out over time. Should some system be put into place to limit that amount so that we can do a better and more thorough job.

When a score is contested can we truncate the score or change the score. Can we just have it moved to another track. What options are going to be available to us. Can we have the option of moving, changing, removing, or adjusting some part of the score so that it can be corrected if needed and not just thrown away.

There also needs to be some sort of punishment for abuse of the system, like wasting adjudicators time on frivolous challenges. Once a persons challenge is rejected are we just going to allow that individual to keep challenging scores. There just has to be a limit on the amount of failed challenges that a person can have before they shouldn't be allowed to challenge again. Some time limit or some kind of restriction needs to be in place for those that don't use the system as designed.

Guidelines should be spelled out in the beginning for what will make a successful challenge. Like video proof and screen shots. Evidence brought forward without these kinds of proof are just going to bring a lot of discussion and he said she said kinda thing.

I like the idea of really limiting the release of the system to those that are going to have very strong video evidence and a well though out reason and explanations as to why its not a good score. Allowing people to just throw out a challenge based on a rule or its just not possible without supporting evidence shouldn't be allowed. But then how and who decides what that should be. Maybe at the start of this challenge system there should be some strong penalties to dissuade people from just throwing up a random challenge and hope that the community goes along.

I guess what I'm asking is that we start out slow and only with those that we absolutely know will be an acceptable challenge. If you aren't sure then maybe you shouldn't challenge the score yet till you have more evidence and a stronger feeling that you can persuade the community.

I just don't want this to be a witch hunt and a negative experience for the community. It would be just great if we had a few challenges at a time to deal with and everyone could see the overwhelming evidence brought forward and come to an easy and quick decision.

Bring on the challenge system!
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