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Arcade Culture Magazine

01-10-2018 at 10:40 PM
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Petition to fold JROK scores into Arcade

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JROK boards are a thing of beauty. They are a technological marvel. They are fully supported here at Twin Galaxies as a separate platform.

My understanding is that when that platform was created, the community had not fully embraced the hardware and were leery of treating performances on them as equal to those on original hardware.

If you are not familiar with JROK, I urge you to investigate as I and others have done. Field Gate Programmable Array is a technology used by the JROK boards to perform a type of hardware emulation. The logic and circuitry is configured on the fly by a set of instructions. The board contains an authentic Z80 processor that executes the ROMS, just like the original hardware.

This is not software emulations as in most multi-boards. There may be some sound emulation that does not affect game play in anyway. The creator of these boards is a purist, and wants to preserve these incredible games for decades to come.

There is not an expert in the world that can tell the difference between a 200,000 point frenzy game on JROK vs original arcade PCB.

John McAllister has submitted a score for Frenzy that was performed on a JROK board. It was submitted to the ARCADE platform however. At first I thought it was an easy reject, but after a lengthy discussion with the live adjudication team lead by @Ninglendo I was torn. I am abstaining for now.


Petition Statement:
I believe the JROK platform should be folded into the ARCADE platform. All future submissions using the JROK boards would be fully acceptable for their corresponding original hardware tracks.

Yes I agree, combine all the scores for both platforms.
No I disagree. JROK should be separate.
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Comments

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  1. JDW's Avatar
    Glitches in JROK, have as yet in my knowledge, to be discovered. If they are, are we sure they will be the same, new or identical glitches? Suppose NO glitches are ever found, then that makes JROK play superior. If JROK is not IDENTICAL then that is another reason it does NOT belong in the same category as Arcades. Purity works along with history from both ends.
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  2. GibGirl's Avatar
    Here's my question - how is the availability of the JROK boards as compared to the original arcade boards? My thought is that if they are approximately as easy to get access to - or easier - then folding them in makes sense. As if it turns out there's a slight advantage on JROK versus the original, then being just as available makes it not too serious. And if there's a slight disadvantage, well, nothing is made worse.

    Of course, any significant advantages that turned up would be justification for making them separate tracks.
  3. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JDW
    Glitches in JROK, have as yet in my knowledge, to be discovered. If they are, are we sure they will be the same, new or identical glitches? Suppose NO glitches are ever found, then that makes JROK play superior. If JROK is not IDENTICAL then that is another reason it does NOT belong in the same category as Arcades. Purity works along with history from both ends.
    if you consider nothing found in jrok to be a glitch, then nothing found in the original was a glitch either, that makes jrok equal, not superior. Please list a single glitch you know of in the originals that is not reprodueable on jrok.

    mind you, i'm on the same page as fearing a merge, which i way i suggested a column be added. But even still I think the argument needs to based on facts, and all your suggestions of play differences is someting i've never seen anyone else be able to point too. Really just one example and this entire discussion could be ended with an easy answer.
  4. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    Here's my question - how is the availability of the JROK boards as compared to the original arcade boards? My thought is that if they are approximately as easy to get access to - or easier - then folding them in makes sense. As if it turns out there's a slight advantage on JROK versus the original, then being just as available makes it not too serious. And if there's a slight disadvantage, well, nothing is made worse.

    Of course, any significant advantages that turned up would be justification for making them separate tracks.
    you can still buy new ones. so very available. and yet other new ones for other games are likely to be created in the future.
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  5. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JDW
    Glitches in JROK, have as yet in my knowledge, to be discovered. If they are, are we sure they will be the same, new or identical glitches? Suppose NO glitches are ever found, then that makes JROK play superior. If JROK is not IDENTICAL then that is another reason it does NOT belong in the same category as Arcades. Purity works along with history from both ends.
    Joel,

    are you referring to glitches in rom or glitches in the hardware? If the rom is identical than the rom is identical and a glitch present in the original code would also be present in the JROK. Hardware glitches occur for a number of reasons...two identical boards can have different glitches depending on how well they and the machine are maintained, so in that way, JROK is no different than any other board.
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  6. Ninglendo's Avatar
    I'm voting yes. It's no different than comparing a regular PS2 and PS2 slim.
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  7. GibGirl's Avatar
    (Also, while we're at it, just merge Xbox 360 Live Arcade into Xbox 360 already. There's absolutely no reason to keep them separate.)
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  8. Snowflake's Avatar
    @Ninglendo makes a good point with technological improvements on other systems. I'm guessing the gensis CDX, being much smaller, also has smaller transistor yet same configuration of said transistors? Theres probably a lot of examples like this.
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  9. Max's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    (Also, while we're at it, just merge Xbox 360 Live Arcade into Xbox 360 already. There's absolutely no reason to keep them separate.)
    And PS4 into PSN.
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  10. GibGirl's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    @Ninglendo makes a good point with technological improvements on other systems. I'm guessing the gensis CDX, being much smaller, also has smaller transistor yet same configuration of said transistors? Theres probably a lot of examples like this.
    And there are known examples of hardware revisions that have compatibility issues with existing games. Genesis revisions with sound changes, SNES revisions that have some visual artifacting, and so on. We accept those as being part of the same system. It's just third-party that TG has kept separate so far.

    Accepting this might also set some precedent for again discussing combining the Analong NT and Super NT with the NES and SNES.
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  11. Snowflake's Avatar
    Thats a good counter @GibGirl , and so then I would have to agree, a mistake made on one system doesnt justify a mistake made on anther system. However we still have the initial argument that jrok plays identical. I think you've done a good job of destroying the argument that uses consoles as a precedent, since that precedent is in error. Jrok though has undergone testing (at least so i'm told, again, i cant personally run and confrim those tests) to show the similiartiy and i believe not a single critical has been able to find any difference that are vaguely alleged to exist.
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  12. Marcade's Avatar
    Eg. The Wii Virtual Console has games you can download from the past Nintendo days of old. NES, SNES, N64, and even some TG16 games mixed in.

    They (each and every one of them) do NOT play exactly identical, only very similar.

    The same goes for the PSN games where you can do the same.

    Therefore those games shall ALWAYS be separated platform, as they should be!

    Back to JROK. I have been convinced that they are identical to original PCB's.
    Until someone gives me (proof) examples right now that they are not, I shall change my stance.

    If you want to be a dinosaur, then one day, you will go extinct. Adapt or die! (Yes, I said it)
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  13. datagod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JDW
    JOEL WEST I too love the JROK boards.. They play GREAT. However, I will be unpopular in my position because the newer to the scene majority always wants to rule. I think there should always be separate categories. There is no use debating me on this. It is my position and sincere belief.
    Thank you for not debating.

    I will add to this however that it is my opinion that Twin Galaxies is more than merely being a shrine to the glorious great ones who were fortunate enough to:

    a) put up top scores on original arcade machines back in the day
    b) know about Twin Galaxies and were able to submit their scores

    The hardware is dying. We have IDENTICAL game play now via JROK boards. We want competition to continue. Old scores will always be in the database. They will just have more company.
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    Updated 01-11-2018 at 11:17 AM by datagod
  14. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade
    Eg. The Wii Virtual Console has games you can download from the past Nintendo days of old. NES, SNES, N64, and even some TG16 games mixed in.

    They (each and every one of them) do NOT play exactly identical, only very similar.

    The same goes for the PSN games where you can do the same.

    Therefore those games shall ALWAYS be separated platform, as they should be!

    Back to JROK. I have been convinced that they are identical to original PCB's.
    Until someone gives me (proof) examples right now that they are not, I shall change my stance.

    If you want to be a dinosaur, then one day, you will go extinct. Adapt or die! (Yes, I said it)
    this is gonna sound like a back handed compliment, but i really mean it bro (or should i say pops?). I absolutely love when an old member like you can come in and tell younger (but still old) people to modernize. @Marcade is cool.
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  15. datagod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    Here's my question - how is the availability of the JROK boards as compared to the original arcade boards? My thought is that if they are approximately as easy to get access to - or easier - then folding them in makes sense. As if it turns out there's a slight advantage on JROK versus the original, then being just as available makes it not too serious. And if there's a slight disadvantage, well, nothing is made worse.

    Of course, any significant advantages that turned up would be justification for making them separate tracks.
    JROK boards are manufactured in small batches (a few hundred at a time?). You have to buy them when they are available, or look for people reselling them. Compared to how many Williams boards are currently functioning out there, and the fact that each JROK board has 5 games (in the case of Williams Robotron, Defender, Defender II, Bubbles, Sinistar) they might not be considered to be rare, just hard to find.
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  16. Ninglendo's Avatar
    Virtual console games have known input lag issues as well as frame rate issues. Mitchflowerpower the current Super Mario 3 speedrun champ used to play on Virtual Console til he learned that the VC ran at a lower frame rate which produced slower times.
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  17. timmell's Avatar
    Great subject for Settle it on the Screen Tomorrow night at 9PM EST!




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  18. datagod's Avatar
    Friendly reminder:

    I know that people think this may be the tip of the spear, and are afraid other platforms will be merged.

    Please let us just focus on JROK right now. We can deal with other platforms separately.

    I love the discussions of course, feel free to continue, but let us keep in mind that this survey is about whether or not you agree on merging JROK with the corresponding arcade tracks.
  19. The Evener's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    Here's my question - how is the availability of the JROK boards as compared to the original arcade boards? My thought is that if they are approximately as easy to get access to - or easier - then folding them in makes sense. As if it turns out there's a slight advantage on JROK versus the original, then being just as available makes it not too serious. And if there's a slight disadvantage, well, nothing is made worse.

    Of course, any significant advantages that turned up would be justification for making them separate tracks.

    Yes, let's put them together. I think technology has overtaken historical fears about tracking everything together because Player B using this set-up might enjoy an advantage over Player A using that set-up. Let's not forget that players back in the day were blasting away for high score on converted cabs with different control panels versus those who were using factory originals. I understand the focus on PCBs, but I think it's remiss to forget that other aspects of game set-up might provide an "advantage" - as a community, we've just come to accept the latter with a shrug basically without question.

    Okay, that isn't completely true - DK verification is pretty stringent at TG, including control panel verification, but them are TG rules - at DK Forum, players mix original hardware with emulation (arcade and MAME), speedrunners will mix original hardware with emulation (console vs EMU), and they've done so without having a civil war. There's already huge areas of the Arcade side where there isn't any active competition because the vast majority of gamers don't have access to original cabinets/PCBs, or the thousands of cabinets that once existed are down to a handful - all of the new scores are being put up on MAME. I'll save that can of worms for a different day.
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  20. datagod's Avatar
    Just to further add, there are people like me who were "there" back in the day, playing every arcade machine we could find. Spending every last quarter we had to our name.

    I own original machines today (Space Invaders, Superman), as well as hybrids (Mostly original hardware, but with a ArPiCade driving the games). They are beautiful and playable. I can submit on original hardware, Raspberry Pi, even on Wolfmame using my converted Neo Geo cabinet.

    My point is that we all have our passions for gaming. We would not be members of Twin Galaxies if we didn't. We don't have to treat scores from the early 80's like they are the Dead Sea Scrolls. Combining the games into one track while footnoting the hardware used will only make gaming and competing on this tracks more fun.
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