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Arcade Culture Magazine

01-10-2018 at 10:40 PM
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Petition to fold JROK scores into Arcade

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JROK boards are a thing of beauty. They are a technological marvel. They are fully supported here at Twin Galaxies as a separate platform.

My understanding is that when that platform was created, the community had not fully embraced the hardware and were leery of treating performances on them as equal to those on original hardware.

If you are not familiar with JROK, I urge you to investigate as I and others have done. Field Gate Programmable Array is a technology used by the JROK boards to perform a type of hardware emulation. The logic and circuitry is configured on the fly by a set of instructions. The board contains an authentic Z80 processor that executes the ROMS, just like the original hardware.

This is not software emulations as in most multi-boards. There may be some sound emulation that does not affect game play in anyway. The creator of these boards is a purist, and wants to preserve these incredible games for decades to come.

There is not an expert in the world that can tell the difference between a 200,000 point frenzy game on JROK vs original arcade PCB.

John McAllister has submitted a score for Frenzy that was performed on a JROK board. It was submitted to the ARCADE platform however. At first I thought it was an easy reject, but after a lengthy discussion with the live adjudication team lead by @Ninglendo I was torn. I am abstaining for now.


Petition Statement:
I believe the JROK platform should be folded into the ARCADE platform. All future submissions using the JROK boards would be fully acceptable for their corresponding original hardware tracks.

Yes I agree, combine all the scores for both platforms.
No I disagree. JROK should be separate.
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Comments

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  1. EVN's Avatar
    Yes. These boards are awesome.
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  2. OzSteve's Avatar
    I vote yes
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  3. HAN's Avatar
    YES, FPGA FTW.
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  4. spectre's Avatar
    Yes I agree, combine all the scores for both platforms.
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  5. Marcade's Avatar
    This is 2018. The future is now. Yes
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  6. datagod's Avatar
    @Jace Hall @admin staff @redelf

    There is a lot of wall activity today, I wanted to make sure this petition is seen.

    P.S. User handles with spaces in them are a pain.
  7. JasonV91's Avatar
    Yes, I see no reason to keep them separate.
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  8. sdwyer138's Avatar
    Agreed, seems like the right thing to do
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  9. HectorTelloc's Avatar
    I vote no. By doing this you open the gateway for nonlegit boards to be counted in too. This will muddy up the entire arcade category and then what next? MAME dedicated machines and emulators? Will we be doing the same with consoles and include consoles like the Retron or how about consoles that use FPGAs, I'm not sure what the Retron uses these days but you get the drift.

    I think this is a horrible idea. Let's keep the arcade scores on authentic machines.
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  10. datagod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc
    I vote no. By doing this you open the gateway for nonlegit boards to be counted in too. This will muddy up the entire arcade category and then what next? MAME dedicated machines and emulators? Will we be doing the same with consoles and include consoles like the Retron or how about consoles that use FPGAs, I'm not sure what the Retron uses these days but you get the drift.

    I think this is a horrible idea. Let's keep the arcade scores on authentic machines.
    There is no next. This is only for JROK. The games are confirmed to play identical, as the hardware itself is represented in the FPGA, and the ROMS run on authentic Z80 processors.
  11. timhett's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc
    I vote no. By doing this you open the gateway for nonlegit boards to be counted in too. This will muddy up the entire arcade category and then what next? MAME dedicated machines and emulators? Will we be doing the same with consoles and include consoles like the Retron or how about consoles that use FPGAs, I'm not sure what the Retron uses these days but you get the drift.

    I think this is a horrible idea. Let's keep the arcade scores on authentic machines.
    I understand the concerns and agree that emulators and other multi boards should not be mixed with the regular arcade scores. The difference is that JROK is not emulated. Essentially what they've done is burn the roms onto new hardware and recreate the board. They are considered totally accurate as far as gameplay and other aspects. I also would vote yes on this question, for merging JROK (only jrok at this point) with regular arcade. The problem I have with voting on the current arcade submission that was done on JROK is that there is already a category for those boards. We should amend the scoreboard before adding new scores. But then those scores should be merged IMHO.
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  12. Snowflake's Avatar
    multiboards are under the arcade platform, neo geo is under the arcade platform, i think its a no brainer to at least put jrok under the arcade platfrom. although thats not quite what you're asking.

    as for merging the tracks themselves, not just the platforms, the only way i'd be ok with that is if a column were added to indicate which was used. Every expert (i'm not an expert, i just listen to them) I've heard says they play the same, so it seems fair to merge the tracks, but for anyone paranoid about future changes being found or even just plain people who want every accurate detail preserved, adding a column will deal with all reasonable objections.

    also, i believe in doing things the right way. The right decision, implemented the wrong way, is the wrong decision. I do think we need admin to sign off on this, I'm not in favor of just ignoring the current rules. By all means change the current rules officially, but dont ignore them -- in other words, i'm still voting reject in adjudication until we get the rules officially changed.
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  13. HectorTelloc's Avatar
    There are consoles that use FPGAs as well. Are we going to allow non authentic consoles into the mix, it's only fair right? Even though that takes away from the prestige of playing on original hardware, which this petition is trying to do.
  14. Snowflake's Avatar
    For the clones -- if the experts acknowlege there is zero play differecne, then i would ask the same thing, add a column. People playing on the original will still get the prestiage of having the column acknowledge they did it on the original
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  15. sdwyer138's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    For the clones -- if the experts acknowlege there is zero play differecne, then i would ask the same thing, add a column. People playing on the original will still get the prestiage of having the column acknowledge they did it on the original
    I also support adding a column to note which type of machine it was played on.
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  16. JDW's Avatar
    JOEL WEST I too love the JROK boards.. They play GREAT. However, I will be unpopular in my position because the newer to the scene majority always wants to rule. I think there should always be separate categories. There is no use debating me on this. It is my position and sincere belief.

    Having been at "the beginning". I will ALWAYS see Arcade games as the HIGHEST of ALL video games. It is what the pastime is even named after. It is what even the play parlors are named after. To mix the original with other categories, even though they play the same, is adding an impurity to the play of the past, and any possible impurities that may be found someday in JROK.

    Oh, I will be questioned 12 ways to Sunday as to why I can't support this, as others try to convince me ... but I HAVE thought of this before. I am not standing in the "way of progress" but trying to "maintain the purity of history". No questions please. I had the idea in SUPPORT of doing the same myself right after JROK first came out. However, even tho the younger group, who usually show little support for history, will probably get it accomplished, I do not think it is right.

    To some degree it could "devalue" more undependable arcade machine scores. In another way it could "over elevate" the dependable JROK score as glitches others had to have the knowledge to play around and avoid become a thing of the past.

    Why does anything have to be done at all? Is TG running out of server space? Is the internet in need of the bandwidth another category takes? No and no.

    I am the one who fought against uniting Pattern and Random BerZerk scores, and won, against them being consolidated into one category. While that was a much more apparent distinction (in today's TG it could easily be argued that Pattern play is cheating to run up the score) ... Arcade vs JROK is a much precise nuance. The protection of history and respect for the namesake of the pastime SHOULD be protected.

    This petition is an idea that every younger group always has: consolidate, innovate and improve. Those ideas are not always bad, and oft times healthy. However, if TG is a organization for ALL gamers and actually respects history then this petition should be denied and purity maintained.
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  17. Jesse Collins's Avatar
    (Non official comment, off the record, etc.) I'm honestly curious on this one, since I'm not in the know on this in-depth hardware. The question I'd have for anyone wanting to merge is "Is it CLOSE or is is IDENTICAL?"
    @datagod says they're identical. I see a couple other say this is not true. Have true tests been run to prove it? I'd love to see that.

    I saw @HectorTelloc had a good concern. Does this open a can of worms for other manufacturers by letting one be merged to "arcade"?

    I'd be interested in what some of the others said that lines need to be made and columns need to be added to give detail on what the platform is.
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  18. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JDW

    To some degree it could "devalue" more undependable arcade machine scores. In another way it could "over elevate" the dependable JROK score as glitches others had to have the knowledge to play around and avoid become a thing of the past. .
    A major part of the argumet is IDENTICAL play, meaning the same gltiches as well. The only glitches in one machine, but not in a jrok, would be glitches that come about from the game itself being damaged, the favorite anecdote for that being from the nibbler movie with dwaynes sped up machines. Any such machine isnt suitable to play on, sure, i guess if its your personal machine and you memorzie the one glitch it has an avoid it fine, that aspect of memorizing your game like biff tannen memorizing how to be the only one to start his car is gone, but any other glitch that must be played around should be the same in both.

    If however the experts are wrong like you're suggesting and their actually are glitches that actually do appear in the arcades that dont appear in jrok, please, give us some examples, or even just one example would completely shut down the main support for this.
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  19. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Collins
    (Non official comment, off the record, etc.) I'm honestly curious on this one, since I'm not in the know on this in-depth hardware. The question I'd have for anyone wanting to merge is "Is it CLOSE or is is IDENTICAL?"
    @datagod says they're identical. I see a couple other say this is not true. Have true tests been run to prove it? I'd love to see that.

    I saw @HectorTelloc had a good concern. Does this open a can of worms for other manufacturers by letting one be merged to "arcade"?

    I'd be interested in what some of the others said that lines need to be made and columns need to be added to give detail on what the platform is.
    its my understanding that although new transistors may be in the chips, the chips themselves are the same. So the jrok board is smaller with new technology, but its just using new technology to shrink the old stuff yet be identical. Due to size issues, i can imagin strange hypotheticals where one is more affected by temperature than another, or by shaking, or UV rays than another and really weird once in a life time glitches may be on what but not the other. But the electronics are the same, only the implementation behind the implementation changes.
  20. Blackflag82's Avatar
    I vote yes on combining them.

    Also, to the argument that these are somehow intrinsically different for no other reason than because they were not produced 35-40 years ago. A strong argument can be made that every board with a repair on it should not be accepted for the same reason...
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    Updated 01-11-2018 at 08:47 AM by Blackflag82
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