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New World Records on Stargate & Defender Tournament

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    Quote Originally Posted by redelf
    I posted a record attempt for Defender on Youtube.

    Great score man! And your robotron 10 man only 910,000 was impressive too. I hope you submit those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redelf View Post
    I'm going to try and attend my first funspot event.
    I will give you some fun in defender, robotron and
    stargate. I'm attempting a record in all three. I'm
    also challenging the current wr on defender as I and
    many others dont believe that it is possible. I did get
    a 264k in defender so far. 840k in robotron and havent
    pulled out the stargate in storage yet to practice.
    bumping this old thread per discussion from Mikael.
    Since the old forum shut down it was brought to light that the Defender TGTS track DOES allow "baiter hunting" as a scoring strategy which is the reason for the extremely high top score. Up to low 300ks have been achieved in the meantime by players not employing baiter hunting at wave end (keeping 4 or more enemies alive to reduce the pace of baiter generation).

    Armed with that knowledge, are there still any Defender tournament setting players interested in competing? Or competing on a non-baiter hunting scoring track?
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    I'd want to keep competing on the TGTS without baiter hunting. The only reason I stopped playing the game was that it was apparent
    that with the current knowledge and skill level I was at, I was never going to get 500k. And the feeling that something was up that
    I wasn't aware of, makes you not want to waste time playing a game when you don't know what's up (baiter hunting allowed) kept behind the scenes and not made public knowledge. I think that there is still several players out there that would start playing and competing again on this title if the scores were reset or cleaned up for this track. Remove the top 2 scores as these are known to be baiter hunting. And all further scores should be made available to the public for viewing to determine if it's legit (no baiter hunting).
    Likes ericliddell liked this post
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    Exactly my feelings: all the question marks & TGs total incommunicado on it really killed this track. It was a mistake to choose not to have an open discussion about Bill Jones’ leeching technique (Baiter Hunting) when that tape arrived. I’m guessing the discussion among the refs was along the lines of ”If Saucer Hunting is allowed for Asteroids, then …” and ”It’s the player’s right to hide his game” (?). What a mistake. All this could’ve been avoided if the new WR had been put out there for all to see. Baiter Hunting adds nothing to Defender TGTS – it’s just a loophole that reduces this classic track to a multi hour repetitious borefest. Should’ve been banned.


    I have a video on YouTube that shows a pretty safe variant of Baiter Hunting. Keeping at least 4 enemies prevents the Baiters from coming faster than 1 per every 3-4 secs. This is plenty of time for a skilled player to deal with a Baiter. Repeat 2500 times.

    ”Defender TGTS (arcade): 274K”:
    Watch what happens on wave 15, at 242K (18 min 45 sec).


    Next problem: George M Barton’s Defender TGTS 472K.
    It was verified by PSP (Patrick Scott Patterson, former TG ref) - we don’t know where (but I seem to recall reading somehere it was recorded, too?).
    In a thread here, from 2011, PSPcomments on this score:

    ”I witnessed Mr. Barton's play at the "Date Achieved" and checked and re-checked everything before and after play. He's owned a Defender machine for a very long time. He chose not to submit it at the time as he felt he could break the record and wanted to wait until he had.
    Unable to do it, and wanting to take a break from play, he asked me to go ahead and enter the previously witnessed score just recently. He hardly pulled it out of his sleeve... he can actually break 250-300k almost at will on those settings. His play is very similar to what I saw McAllister doing at Funspot last year.”

    Playing Defender TGTS similar to McAllister would imply he actually did this ”straight up”. I must say I have my doubts, though.


    So this still festers. Only way to really clean these wounds would be to make those recordings public: seeing is believing. But I’ve heard many of the tapes players have sent in to TG for verification are scattered around – among them the Bill Jones and George M Barton recordings – and some of them in the possession of ex-TG people. Is this true? If this is the case, I think these must be located and retrieved.

    Problem #3:
    As you can see from Scott Heyano’s (’slh’) and Bill Jones’ posts above, in the 80’s, Defender & Stargate TGTS were played with only 3 ships & bombs.
    And we don’t know if they’d figured out the Baiter Hunting leeching strategy on Defender, either.


    Resulting in a High Score table that is a mess, to say the least …


    DEFENDER TGTS (Arcade):

    1. 543.950 (108K/ship) Bill Jones Aug 15 2008 (Video) – 5 ships – Baiter Hunting

    2. 472.150 (94K/ship) George M Barton Sep 17 2009 (Referee) – 5 ships - ?

    3. 264.450 (52K/ship) John P McAllister Dec 31 2008 (DVD) – 5 ships – ”Straight Up”

    4. 230.125 (76K/ship) Gino Yoo Jun 30 1985 (Referee) – 3 ships - ?

    5. 184.025 (61K/ship) Shane Ducharme Jun 30 1985 (Referee) – 3 ships - ?

    6. 175.100 (58K/ship) Mike Munoz Jun 30 1984 (Referee) – 3 ships - ?
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    Certainly all that needs to be done is add another variation to the TGTS Defender. Then there can be one for straight up, NO Baiter Hunting and to keep the Baiter Hunting track. It gives the gamers more to choose from and the scores can be moved over to the current variation they belong in.

    I know little to nothing about the game play for the #2 score by George M. Barton so that would have to be researched to see where it belongs.
    Stephen K. Boyer
    Former Twin Galaxies Sr. Referee
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 1,517,380 ( Arcade Medium World Record )
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 788,970 ( Arcade Medium NO POW World Record )
    Mario Bros. Single Player MEDIUM 4,260,210 ( MAME World Record )
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    Here is a fun update on this topic.
    One of the current "extreme masters" of Defender showing how to baiter hunt.
    You'll see him pick up all the humanoids on wave 1 which is a master skill.
    Then you'll observe the environment slow down which is a facet of the way the CPU manages all of the activity.
    Then you'll see if the player shoots too much it'll trigger the baiters to teleport to the opposite side of the world, which is also an intentional design to keep the amount of processing under control for the CPU.

    So at that point the concept of baiter hunting becomes quite manageable.
    Are you inspired to find the joy in gaming?

    TG employee (82-84)
    robotron2084guidebook.com/
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    It's pretty cool to see someone show this stuff and make the game slow down a bit. It STILL looks hard to do though and to only have 5 men to get over 500K? I'm starting to respect the baiter hunting a little bit more even if it is looked down upon by the community.
    Stephen K. Boyer
    Former Twin Galaxies Sr. Referee
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 1,517,380 ( Arcade Medium World Record )
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 788,970 ( Arcade Medium NO POW World Record )
    Mario Bros. Single Player MEDIUM 4,260,210 ( MAME World Record )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
    It's pretty cool to see someone show this stuff and make the game slow down a bit. It STILL looks hard to do though and to only have 5 men to get over 500K? I'm starting to respect the baiter hunting a little bit more even if it is looked down upon by the community.
    yah, good stuff.

    I guess my hope long term would be that people continue to discover and rediscover games like this which were masterpieces in programming minimalism with maximum results.

    This particular scoring track with all the shrouded secrecy should not have negative effects on folks for playing Defender, and on some level as you state inspires folks to keep playing Defender.

    Learning to do what you see above is many years of focused effort with the baiter hunting being JUST ONE of the myriad end results of masterful play, by no means the be-all and end-all of the definition of an ultimate skill-set. Parlour tricks and crowd pleasers....
    Are you inspired to find the joy in gaming?

    TG employee (82-84)
    robotron2084guidebook.com/
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    Here is another vid which Defender fans will find inspiring from MOS in Sweden.
    Playing max difficulty on the hardest romset to 1 million.

    Are you inspired to find the joy in gaming?

    TG employee (82-84)
    robotron2084guidebook.com/
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