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BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Otto
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyKongFan

    Unless someone has video proof of an existing score not using a box pattern, I would think so. I don't know how else you'd do it.
    Exactly. Once the 2 methods of playing have been intermingled between video/non video/80's/present day, etc. It is impossible to separate out the existing scores.
    Good point, but of course you could use a time machine to go back in time to see how the scores were set, so theoretically its possible.
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    Come on guys, the only scores that are Pattern play are the top 2 in fast bullets arcade and the top 1 in slow bullets arcade. As far as M.A.M.E. all one has to do is look at the .inps. This is a no-brainier. In the visual it is obvious, In addition, the score and time played are true indications. In fast bullets the 104k+ score was witnessed by no less than Walter Day himself. the next top 2 were video submissions and were Patterns. In slow Bullets the top score was also a Pattern on video.
    You do not "mix" anything. We have the "mix" now. That's the problem. You establish a Pattern variation and move the above scores to it. You establish a Random variation and move all the remaining scores to it. It is that simple.
    The current 104k+ on fast bullets arcade is near the top of what is humanly possible. I believe it's beatable but it will be a tough effort, if at all. That game lasted a little less than 1 hour and 40 minutes. To beat the Pattern record you will have to play the same 4 rooms for over 6 hours and then you will have 4 other men to finish out with.
    Verification is not that complicated, in fact it is obvious.
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    change

    Hector
    If you need me, I'll be on the 7th floor.
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    Quote Originally Posted by JDW
    Come on guys, the only scores that are Pattern play are the top 2 in fast bullets arcade and the top 1 in slow bullets arcade.
    http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/foru ... l#msg23126

    This is why this would be a problem just guessing about which scores were done how Joel.

    "I tried the Berzerk fast bullets and got 89,310 with a box pattern that didn't do too good"

    http://twingalaxies.com/php/scores/SeeS ... vi=659&s=1

    To start separating scores from the past, you need video evidence of how they were played. That is impossible to do.

    I'm all for new tracks but I have no idea what you would do with the existing scores without video of how they were done.


    The only option I can see is on the current slow and fast Berzerk tracks saying they COULD HAVE used a pattern or COULD HAVE been played left to right and then creating 2 new tracks for fast and slow bullets and specifiying that on the new track, the game MUST be played from left to right with no exceptions and witnessed by a ref in some capacity the entire time whether live or video. I just can't see moving old scores around. If you want a new track, I understand and support that, but you can't intermingle it with the old scores.
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    Change is my vote.

    Really, I think there should be as many sub-catagories as needed for each and every game. If a certain gameplay style gives a player an advantage over another player...youre really playing a different version of the game, right? Playing the same boards over and over is much different than playing hundreds of completely random boards.

    It would be like if you could find a way to play all the barrel stages in DK the exact same way, where the barrels always come down the exact same way, including wild barrels, and thus you would know how to proceed up all ladders, group barrels for extra points, and just do it the same way every time...not having to worry about any "random" elements.

    For a lot of games, randomness is what makes them great (challenging)!

    Mike
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegmi2
    Change is my vote.

    Really, I think there should be as many sub-catagories as needed for each and every game. If a certain gameplay style gives a player an advantage over another player...youre really playing a different version of the game, right? Playing the same boards over and over is much different than playing hundreds of completely random boards.

    It would be like if you could find a way to play all the barrel stages in DK the exact same way, where the barrels always come down the exact same way, including wild barrels, and thus you would know how to proceed up all ladders, group barrels for extra points, and just do it the same way every time...not having to worry about any "random" elements.

    For a lot of games, randomness is what makes them great (challenging)!

    Mike
    Once again, for the pattern repeating levels I believe the robots are still random and you don't know where they will appear. Am I wrong here? It's not like they will be in the very same spots each time or someone would already have a million on this title.
    Stephen K. Boyer
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    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 1,517,380 ( Arcade Medium World Record )
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 788,970 ( Arcade Medium NO POW World Record )
    Mario Bros. Single Player MEDIUM 4,260,210 ( MAME World Record )
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    In response to Evil Otto:

    I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand how to separate these scores. It is quite easy, of course, on the .inps and videos. On the prior scores that were ref witnessed you ask the ref and if need be, the player. On page 890 of Twin Galaxies Official Book of Video Game and Pinball World Records (1998 version) is the story of Ron Bailey's (greatest game ever) 104k+. It was witnessed by Walter Day. He also witnessed my 76,850. There are also witnesses for the other top scores on fast bullets. The slow bullets were either ref witnessed or certified by the old way of statement except for the top score which was an .inp.

    There is no use to form a new variation and leave the current one alone. The current single variation is the problem of "mixing" apples and oranges. To be fair and honor those with prior accomplishments you must separate ALL the scores from the beginning. The top 6 of the 7 submitted fast bullets scores are verifiable by contact of ref and or in your and Ayra's case video/.inp. The first person to use Pattern play was Ayra, it is obvious by date and score. You are the only one to submit a record breaking score since then. Younger is alive and available to ask which he used, etc. There is only one guy who I can't hook up with and that is #7 on fast bullets from 1982.

    The slow bullets list, 11 of the top 13 scorers can be contacted, as well as the refs involved. All of the top 7 can be called within minutes (2 would have to have letters mailed to them).

    There again, Steve Wagner, Chris Ayra & Phil Younger have been the only players EVER to submit Pattern scores. Besides the video/ref/certification the scores are an indication of when patterns were played and when Random was used. Steve you would still be champion of your category. Besides, today only .inps and video are allowed so there can be no cheating involved by someone trying to get into the wrong variation. Do you really think with video evidence that anyone could submit a score to beat the Pattern record and cheat? Not if the ref watches the video. Do you think if someone's score wasn't good enough to beat the Pattern record but tried to use it to beat the Random record that it would not be caught? Not if the ref watched the video. No one is really going to submit a Pattern score to try to beat the Random record unless it is more than the Random record.
    So what if they submit an 8th place score or a 12th place score. Big Deal if it gets by the ref, it probably would not. But if it does, Big Deal! This is about competing for a record, not 17th place!
    However, simply, verify all the video/.inps, have player certifications, have ref certifications. Do the best that can be done, but separate apples from oranges. If someone is dead, in prison, or can't be found and the ref/witness is not available, then go with the evidence of the score, date played, etc. We do not have to do that with the top scores though, where the contention is, we have video evidence.
    From hereon in the future all video evidence will be there to truly show what method was used, and integrity will be maintained. It is just that simple.
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    This sounds a little like my desire for TG to seperate the Asteroids scores where it's known the player used a speed up hack. Using the speed up hack makes it a very different game and you can't hope to get the marathon record without using one but yet the scores are comingled with those where a hack wasn't used. Good luck. I understand your frustration.

    My opnion is that it sounds to me that using the box pattern should be considered leaching. The gamer is making no effort to progress through the game when playing the same 4 levels over and over. I'd vote to simply remove the scores that used this method and make a rule to not allow this type of play. But I'm sure that would cause a boat load of drama so I'm not sure how to solve the issue. To me, this seems like another example of something that should never have been allowed in the first place but it was so what are you gonna do about it? Berzerk has been ruined for those that want to play the game straight up like Asteroids has been ruined for those of us who don't have access to the proper speed up hack. It sucks for both of us. Hopefully if they fix one, they fix them both.
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    I vote change as well.


    Svenne
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    Re: BERZERK: Vote, Random Play or Pattern Play

    vote CHANGE

    I remember seeing some ware a video with Walter in it being told that a player is leaching points from the coconut board on Zoo Keeper in a treatment. Walters’s response was (his Decision) that if there no timer in the game you cant leach so what is the box pattern I ask?
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