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Thread: Nintendo Entertainment System - Gradius - NTSC - Points - 807,400 - Pete Hahn

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    Nintendo Entertainment System - Gradius - NTSC - Points - 807,400 - Pete Hahn



    NTSC - Points
    Score Trackhttp://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=3435
    RulesFactory Default [No Codes Allowed]
    Special Rules: Level skipping via destroying a boss fast enough, IS permitted! You're only permitted to obtain the secret 1-Up on Level 4 ONCE per loop or your scoring attempt will be disqualified! Please note that when you beat the game, it starts over from the begining with your score intact, so you may continue on until you either lose all your lives and reach the Game Over Screen or the Score maxes out.
    Submission MessageI've been meaning to get the discussion rolling on the AVS system by retroUSB, so I played this submission using it along with an original NES Gradius cart.

    After the AVS is powered on, I show that both no game genie codes are active, and that no turbo buttons are active, as well.

    For those looking for more info on the AVS, I will supply links in the submission discussion.

    Made it to stage 3 of the 2nd loop, screen cap of final score:
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	19180

    Thanks for taking a look and adjudicating my submission!
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    Links for more info on the AVS system...

    Official manufactures page with specs, ect:
    http://www.retrousb.com/product_info...products_id=78

    NeoGaf discussion forum, many Q & A's addressed:
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...1259517&page=1

    Main points that I would like to point out:

    1) Does NOT rip Rom images from carts to play them with an emulator, like a Retron5.
    2) 100% compatibility with all games and accessories with no lag

    I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this system, as it pertains to submitting to TG. I figured to best way to get that ball rolling was to submit a score on it; I'm not intending to cause trouble and/or controversy here.
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    More Information I will Lay Back on this one


    AVS system by retroUSB Setup Starts at :35 to 1:00 of the video


    Gradius Game Starts at 1:03 of the video

    Gradius Game Settings Begin at

    Nintendo Entertainment System - Gradius - NTSC - Points - 807,400 Final Score is at 25:44-50 of the video


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    From the product page: "It's so bad even your Power Glove works."

    That's more than enough for me to accept AVS scores.
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    I just read all the information about the console. While I think it's a great product, I'm not in favor of mixing it in with regular NES scores since it's not original hardware:

    "While the NES processor (called the 6502) is still manufactured and used today for many purposes, this particular product (the AVS) doesn't use it. It uses a piece of hardware called a Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA), which is an integrated circuit that can be programmed through firmware to mimic something else.

    That's why some folks are referring to the AVS as hardware-based emulation. To some extent that's true, but I think that characterization minimizes the unprecedented accuracy we can expect to see from it."

    Great accuracy, but not exact. I think it's comparable to MAME / Arcade, which of course are kept separate here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RaGe View Post
    I just read all the information about the console. While I think it's a great product, I'm not in favor of mixing it in with regular NES scores since it's not original hardware:

    "While the NES processor (called the 6502) is still manufactured and used today for many purposes, this particular product (the AVS) doesn't use it. It uses a piece of hardware called a Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA), which is an integrated circuit that can be programmed through firmware to mimic something else.

    That's why some folks are referring to the AVS as hardware-based emulation. To some extent that's true, but I think that characterization minimizes the unprecedented accuracy we can expect to see from it."

    Great accuracy, but not exact. I think it's comparable to MAME / Arcade, which of course are kept separate here.

    @RaGe ,

    Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. You bring up some valid points...

    I'd like to know where we, as a community, would draw the line with "original" being the basis for accepting scores on console tracks.

    For example, we (the TGSAP community) already are ok with Everdrive submissions, where the software is on an SD card.

    In this case, I am using an original NES cart, but the CPU running the game isn't "original". For all the NES system that are still out there in existence running an original 6502 CPU, how many of them perform exactly the same? Is the difference negligible? Is that difference less than the difference between an old 6502 and an FPGA programmed to run exactly like a new 6502?

    In the case of the AVS, the 6502 is cloned, not emulated - I wanted to be sure that part wasn't missed.

    Thanks again for taking to time to look and respond with your input.
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    The AVS looks awesome, but pricey.

    Some key features of note for me...


    Ports: HDMI Type A for video and audio, USB Mini B for power and data
    Online: NA Scoreboard online score system through USB
    The fact that this is cloning not emulating is of particular interest.


    Zero lag scaling, optional scanlines with variable darkness, and multiple regions let you select the perfect picture. Set horizontal scaling anywhere from square pixels to super wide screen. A NES with composite compared to the AVS is a stunning difference in picture quality.
    The advances in hardware gives a definite advantage over the original system.

    Thirty years after the NES, retroUSB becomes a complete console company. The AVS is a console as beautiful as the pixel perfect HD images it generates. Couldn't be simpler, works just the way you expect it to. Real hardware means no boot or loading times. No stolen software emulators or buggy NOAC chips. A wide range of gamepad, video, and cheat options to play the way you want.
    It is my opinion that these scores should not be mixed with the NES tracks or EMU tracks, because this is a separate console that should have its own set of tracks. Even though this is using the original retro cartridges (and new ones), it is not processing the same and may give advantages over the original system or emulators.

    ABSTAIN
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGA HAN View Post
    @RaGe,

    Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. You bring up some valid points...

    I'd like to know where we, as a community, would draw the line with "original" being the basis for accepting scores on console tracks.

    For example, we (the TGSAP community) already are ok with Everdrive submissions, where the software is on an SD card.

    In this case, I am using an original NES cart, but the CPU running the game isn't "original". For all the NES system that are still out there in existence running an original 6502 CPU, how many of them perform exactly the same? Is the difference negligible? Is that difference less than the difference between an old 6502 and an FPGA programmed to run exactly like a new 6502?

    In the case of the AVS, the 6502 is cloned, not emulated - I wanted to be sure that part wasn't missed.

    Thanks again for taking to time to look and respond with your input.
    No problem, Pete. Regarding Everdrives, I know you're aware of this, but I want to point out to others who may not be, that the exact ROM from the game cartridges are being used. It's just a different way of getting the ROM to the consoles. Those are interesting questions you made about NES's performing the same (I guess the same question could be put forth to all old consoles) , and an old 6502 vs. an FPGA. I guess there's no (easy) way to know for sure. I can only base my opinion on the facts, unfortunately.

    However this plays out, I still feel it's a great purchase, just for the picture quality alone - Original NES gaming is rough on the eyes on an LCD. I think they'd make a total killing if it were priced closer to $100.
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    However this plays out, I still feel it's a great purchase, just for the picture quality alone - Original NES gaming is rough on the eyes on an LCD. I think they'd make a total killing if it were priced closer to $100.
    They are probably just hiking the price for the initial run on these things (just like any other console release), then the price will drop to the next level of consumers. The $100 price will be much more successful when it gets down to that, because I am sure the cost of production will go down when they increase sales and deal in larger quantities.

    It still goes back to it being a niche market though, because only retro gamers are interested in obsolete graphics. One guy in those forums who commented....
    It's amazing that this is still considered a niche market. Bruh. All of the folks who played this thing are in their 30s and 40s. They still play games. They have disposable income. And you'd be tapping into their childhood
    ...
    They're cartridge systems. They'll last longer than any Playstation or Xbox. Millions of folks have them. WHY aren't there more than 1 or 2 indie developers making games for them? Why isn't Nintendo and Sega capitalizing on upgraded hardware?
    The old systems using that processor (NES,C64,Atari) were so limited in memory and graphics capabilities :( PPU - P = PU :) that there is no comparison to modern hardware. With the modern graphics capabilities of the latest consoles, there is little interest in developing 16x16 pixel 2d art based games. Especially when the majority of consumers demand realistic 3d models with the latest shaders and not cartoon style 2d sprites. Even mobile devices are sporting 3d models in games, and 2d is slowly being left behind. The old 2d sprites will always be a niche market, even though there are still super geeks who accept the challenge of the minimalist approach to game development, and the retro gamers who bid for classic game cartridges. Unfortunately, we will probably be the minority of consumers for a long time if not always, so the big corps will keep focusing on 3D and graphic processing advancements.

    The AVS is very interesting though, and has sparked my interest in the NES cartridges and the process of creating a game for these NES cartridge based consoles. It looks as if the process is very technical and requires some soldering to wipe/reprogram the two EPROMS. Probably another reason so few accept the challenge, because you have to program in Assembly or C in a way to time things right for that processor, and then you have to hack an old cartridge to re-program it with your new code. A huge investment of time to create these things by an individual bedroom hacker instead of the corporate teams of old. The AVS does make for an interesting hobby though for some of us nerds in the community, so I hope this console does well. It would be nice to see a surge of new game cartridges being released for these retro gaming consoles.
    I wanted the pretty girls to come up and say, "Hi, I see that you're good at Centipede." -Walter Day

    I want the pretty girls to come up and say, "Hi, I see you're good at Rod-Land." -Conjured
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conjured Entertainment View Post
    They are probably just hiking the price for the initial run on these things (just like any other console release), then the price will drop to the next level of consumers. The $100 price will be much more successful when it gets down to that, because I am sure the cost of production will go down when they increase sales and deal in larger quantities.
    Yea, I was thinking that, too. It's a smart move on their part. On a similar side note, I like what the Everdrive site did with their "Mega Everdrives" recently. They now have three types, with the most expensive having more features, but the lowest priced gets the job done. They covered the customer price-spectrum that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conjured Entertainment View Post
    It still goes back to it being a niche market though, because only retro gamers are interested in obsolete graphics.

    The old systems using that processor (NES,C64,Atari) were so limited in memory and graphics capabilities :( PPU - P = PU :) that there is no comparison to modern hardware. With the modern graphics capabilities of the latest consoles, there is little interest in developing 16x16 pixel 2d art based games. Especially when the majority of consumers demand realistic 3d models with the latest shaders and not cartoon style 2d sprites. Even mobile devices are sporting 3d models in games, and 2d is slowly being left behind. The old 2d sprites will always be a niche market, even though there are still super geeks who accept the challenge of the minimalist approach to game development, and the retro gamers who bid for classic game cartridges. Unfortunately, we will probably be the minority of consumers for a long time if not always, so the big corps will keep focusing on 3D and graphic processing advancements.
    True, but I do see more and more people getting interested in old games as the years go by. It's funny. It's like an awakening - You can't force it on people, they have to get "it" on their own. It'll probably never get to a point that big companies will take interest, but I can see more super geeks getting involved in developing retro games in the years to come.
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