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M.A.M.E. - Major Havoc [Rev 3] - Points [Tournament Settings] - 1,133,078 - David Jury

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Is this a valid score?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,066
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    Well I guess I must address the WR elephant in the room...

    Evidence suggests that the top 3 Major Havoc Arcade WR's may have benefited from abusing the Level 13 hand/finger trick with the Rev 2 romset, which brought up on this thread recently...
    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post887137

    If nobody can tell me what final level each of the top three finished on to help us verify whether or not Level 13 was looped this way then I am leaning towards these being suspect submissions that somehow got through without anyone asking too many questions about them (like I-Robot and Black Widow cough cough). I hope these players or those that know them and any details speak up someday to clear this up hopefully. Isn't it odd that nobody knows what level they ended on for such legendary scores?

    You earn about 120-140k per cycle of final levels 13-16 that repeat forever. Although there is less oxygen for levels 17-20+ so it may be lower than that. This game I got 1,085,974 points at the end of Level 16. Subtract that from the 950,000 point warp award to level 13 and I earned about 135,000 points on those 4 levels that repeat forever with not much change other than less o2.

    So let's call it a 130k average for the loop of Levels 17-20+. The 1,940,078 Ettore WR - 1,085,974 @ end of Level 16 for me = 854,104 points I need to match the old TG arcade WR from Level 17+. At an average scoring of 130k per 4 levels it looks like I would need to play another 6.57 loops of 4 levels = about 26 more levels after 16 (Level 42-ish).

    The main problem with that is the lack of points and lives (ignoring my current tournament settings here). You normally get 3 lives to start. 1 extra for the Aqua Warp. 1 Extra for finishing the Breakout Game. Those 5 lives can be gotten by or around 1 million points when you earn your first 100k bonus life. Total lives between 950k warping and 1.9 million I think possible would be 3+1+1+10 lives for every 100k between 1 million and 1.9 million = 15 lives total. But you have to give up 1 life per cycle of 4 on Level 16, 20, 24, 28 etc up to 42 because this level lacks enough o2 to finish in one go (after you get the red key and disable the finger you end up with near zero o2 by the time you get back to the reactor and not enough to escape by far).

    If I need to play 26 more levels I need to give up 7 lives just on the repeating Level 16. So that leaves 8 lives to spare for the whole trip to 1.9 million otherwise. You would hover around 5-6 lives from 1 million plus with little room for error at any point while you earn 100K bonus lives up to 1.9 million (1 per cycle that you lose anyway on each level 16 repeat trip).

    That might seem possible in a near perfect game but starting on the cycle of 4 levels from 17-20 the Oxygen counts down even faster than 13-16. Repeating Levels 18 and 19+ (13/14) are nail biters that must be perfect the whole way or you either die from lack of o2 or the reactor timer gets you. There is a random seed issue on the Maze level 15 that makes things harder : Even if you execute the level the exact same way, the timing of the ceiling opening after the gun hallway can leave you in a very tough spot trying to descend through the Fryoids b4 the reactor area costing you o2 you simply don't always have. That level can become impossible to clear on 1 life Level 17+ if that ceiling opens at the wrong timing which it probably would at least ones or more in that long a trip to Level 42. Even sacrificing one life on Level 16 you face a very tight reactor timer at the end even if you are perfect playing so you might die on that a couple of times too.

    Throw in the sometimes random behavior of the Fishoids, the equally difficult Flyboid sections, and the must be near perfect Maze, plus very very tough Angry Red Lines outer space section of each cycle and it becomes harder and harder to believe somebody could get that far with some tricks we don't know about yet on so few lives/points available. You would have to play 28 levels almost perfectly to get that old WR score which seems a tall order I still want to believe in, but like Santa Claus delivering presents to every kid in the World in one evening it looks pretty unlikely at this point.
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    The Level 13 finger bug is only found on the older Rev 2 romset Mhavoc2 so any scores set on the Mhavoc romsets should be okay because that bug is fixed in those ones. I think the Return to Vax mod was built off rev 3 so there is also no way to use the finger bug on that version (I hope). Atari made this fix to close this bug they knew was costing them quarters.

    I even talked with Owen Rubin via email about this recently and this is what he had to say,
    "On the high score, they should not count any score that made us if the finger bug, and that was why we put out a rev 2. Maybe they should just have two high scores. But in my view, any high score using the finger bug is not truly valid in my view."
  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,066
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    New Arcade track still needed

    So the current MAME tracks for Rev 3 make sure that the Rev 2 romset with the bug cannot be used, but we still have to make a new Arcade track that specifies this since the current one does not (must be Rev 3 romset/no finger bug trick allowed).

    It's odd that the MH Arcade track did not specify what romset rev to use while the MAME tracks did. Everyone knew about the finger bug in the 80's when I was playing as a kid, and they also knew Atari knew about it and fixed it. But, since there were so few machines in existence many still had the bug that these 80's WR's may have taken advantage of fully or partially. I would think TG would have made that clear, unless they knew these scores all used the level 13 trick which may have been accepted back then for reasons unknown.

    I think Tempest conversion kits like I played on would be more likely to have the Rev 3 fix since they came out after original limited run of MH arcade cabs that did not do that well sadly.

    We may never know for sure given the lack of information from so long ago so just moving forward on new Rev 3 rom based tracks seems to be the best way to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerky View Post
    The Level 13 finger bug is only found on the older Rev 2 romset Mhavoc2 so any scores set on the Mhavoc romsets should be okay because that bug is fixed in those ones. I think the Return to Vax mod was built off rev 3 so there is also no way to use the finger bug on that version (I hope). Atari made this fix to close this bug they knew was costing them quarters.

    I even talked with Owen Rubin via email about this recently and this is what he had to say,
    "On the high score, they should not count any score that made us if the finger bug, and that was why we put out a rev 2. Maybe they should just have two high scores. But in my view, any high score using the finger bug is not truly valid in my view."
    Wish I could just edit this...anyway...I think Owen made a mistake and meant Rev 3 not 2 if anyone wonders...Rev 3 fixed the bug in Rev 2.
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    Hand trick Vid Explanation

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    Bumpity Bump.

    Major Havoc No Warps submission coming soon. Here is a preview of Levels 1-8 :
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    Accepted WOW Awesome Performance David the Master of Major Havoc A New World Record you could have Scored Higher.

    David Jury Please Try Seeing How High you can Get with doing the Level 13 hand/finger trick with the Rev 2 romset,

    Special Note To Twin Galaxy from David from Reply 1

    The Dip Switches were Set to No Bonus Lives which only Affects Scoring Points during the Game Otherwise (the every 100k Bonus). I did not earn a Free Life at 1,000,000 and 1,100,000 points in Other Oords and Dip Settings don't Affect the Warp/Breakout Bonus Lives.-> Only 1 Life each 2 Total

    Special Note to Twin Galaxy Members From David in Reply 1
    I want to point out that the game awards you an extra life when you warp up to Level 13 as I have from the Level 1 start.



    Extra Life From Warping

    Twin Galaxy Members You Can Clearly See 1 Extra Life from :28-30 of the video Score is 950,000 Level 13 Name:  2017_04_17_14_31_593.jpg
Views: 48
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    Earned an Extra Life by Finishing the Breakout Game.

    Twin Galaxy Members Extra Life from Breakout Game Can Clearly be Seen from 11:36-39 of the video
    Score is 1,087,278 Level 17 Name:  2017_04_17_14_40_104.jpg
Views: 49
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    Major Havoc [Rev 3] Game Starts at :13 of the video

    Lives: 5 to Start

    Twin Galaxy Members You Can Clearly See at :14 of the Video Score is 0 Level 1 with 4 Men in Reserve at the Top Left Corner of the Video Game Screen & the 1 Man that David is Playing Name:  2017_04_17_14_49_595.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  52.4 KB


    No Extra Man At 1,000,000 or 1 Million Points

    Twin Galaxy Members you Can Clearly See from 3:25 Score is 999,821 to 3:27 Score is 1,000,000 of the video Level 14

    No Extra Man was Given Verified All Good A Ok

    As you Can Clearly See at the Top Left Corner David Has only 5 Extra Men Beside the 1 Man David is Playing he Never gets a Extra Man Verifying the Game Dip Switch Settings were used Rules for Major Havoc set by Twin Galaxy

    Attachment 26444
    Attachment 26445

    No Extra Man At 1,100,000

    Twin Galaxy Members you Can Clearly See from 11:56 Score is 1,098,578 to 11:58 Score is 1,100,578 of the video Level 17

    No Extra Man was Given Verified All Good A Ok Name:  2017_04_17_15_21_316.jpg
Views: 47
Size:  48.0 KB

    Name:  2017_04_17_15_23_267.jpg
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    Major Havoc [Rev 3] Game Settings & MAME Analyst by Almighty Dreadlock in Reply 6 All Goo A Ok

    M.A.M.E. - Major Havoc [Rev 3] - Points [Tournament Settings] - 1,133,078 - David Jury Final Score is at 14:13 to 14:23 of the video Game Initials JRKRules

    Name:  2017_04_17_15_47_458.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  50.2 KB


    1st Man Lost is at 4:57 of the video Score is 1,026,624 Level 15

    2nd Man Lost is at 6:33 of the video Score is 1,032,874 Level 15

    3rd Man Lost is at 8:32 of the video Score is 1,050,974 Level 16

    4th Man Lost is at 9:10 of the video Score is 1,060,674 Level 16

    5th Man Lost is at 10:08 of the video Score is 1,070,774 Level 16

    6th Man Lost is at 12:50 of the video Score is 1,109,378 Level 17

    7th & Final Man Lost is at 14:13 of the video Final Score is 1,133,078



    RulesROMSet: MHavoc
    Adaptive difficulty: On
    Bonus Life: None
    Difficulty: Medium
    Lives: 5 [4 In Free Play]
    Service Mode: Off
    Special Rules: You MUST start from level 1. You may freely use the Mini Pong game to activate Warps.

    Special Note to Twin Galaxy Members From David in Reply 1
    I want to point out that the game awards you an extra life when you warp up to Level 13 as I have from the Level 1 start.

    I also earned an extra life by finishing the breakout game.


    The dip switches were set to no bonus lives which only affects scoring points during the game otherwise (the every 100k bonus). I did not earn a free life at 1,000,000 and 1,100,000 points in other words and dip settings don't affect the warp/breakout bonus lives.



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    7th & Final Man Lost is at 14:13 of the video Final Score is 1,133,078 Level 18

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    David Jury Please Try Seeing How High a Score you can Get with doing the Level 13 hand/finger trick with the Rev 2 romset,

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjt_defender View Post

    David Jury Please Try Seeing How High a Score you can Get with doing the Level 13 hand/finger trick with the Rev 2 romset,

    I actually gave this a quick try in a submission I made on MARP a little while back. It only took me a handful of attempts to set this score below that I am sure others could top if they wanted to spend the time doing so.

    1,494,078 points (looping level 13 via the hand trick)
    http://replay.marpirc.net/r/mhavoc2
    http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/f/2/9/...78_wolf152.zip

    It would not be too hard to crack 2 million points to pass the "legendary" Ettore Ciaffi arcade record this way, but I am personally not interested in spending any more time than I already have on this novelty track. I just wanted to show how "easy" it was to abuse the rev 2 hand trick that was probably used in some way to set the current top three arcade scores from the 80's (again we may never know for 100% certain).
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