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Todd Roger Atari 2600 Video Game World Records

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    It's great to see these recaps in a public-facing forum at last (not the first time I've seen various accounts as an x-ref myself as I'm sure other x-refs will have). Thanks, Robert. :)

    So, here's the thing that bugged me all those early web site years about TG (or even the paper era prior). Something was missing from public-facing database: scores that were "removed". The problem with deletion is that all the evidence that surrounds the decision disappears from view. I know that was rectified during the Brien King-era version of the TG web site (2004-~2009): such scores were still in the database and merely hidden from view (but still the public-facing web site had the "problem" of no acknowledgement). Trouble is, did they then survive the web site transition during the Pete B-era (which apparently messed up lots of scores which are still butchered into uselessness on the scoreboard) and does the current TG have access to that information or the prior incarnation of the database?!

    Are you on my radar?
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
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    Hi Andrew:

    When Brien, Ron and I mapped out the details behind the initial database the ability to extract those "hidden" scores existed, but only for Brien as a general reporting tool did not exist for the general referee staff.

    I have to imagine that even now, the old database is accessible to Jace and his team, so a simple data extract should produce the scores in question BUT scores that were summarily removed from the database are likely gone for good (such as the 5M "Pacman" score by Jeffrey Yee among others)
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    I have to imagine that even now, the old database is accessible to Jace and his team, so a simple data extract should produce the scores in question BUT scores that were summarily removed from the database are likely gone for good (such as the 5M "Pacman" score by Jeffrey Yee among others)
    The database Jace will have inherited is not the same one Brien designed & Jace has mentioned previously that the inherited database is still used by the site for legacy information (but is not updated).

    There was a transformation during the Pete B era & based on comments by Jace+TG current era it isn't the same one you & I know from Brien. Brien's database had separate fields for each score type - integer, floating point, time (and two others I can't remember). Every score had all five fields but only the relevant one was populated. I believe the Pete B era database only had one field for scores: everything was stored as an integer with fields at the variation level on how that was interpreted - i.e., the variation held the knowledge that it was measured in milliseconds for time variations (1 minute is stored as 60000) or how many decimals should be used for floating point scores (1.234 is stored as 1234 and the variation notes three decimals in use). [Note: this is not an unusual approach in databases to keep them simple.]
    Last edited by Barthax; 07-14-2017 at 01:36 AM.
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    Oh, just peachy :(

    Well, this is what happens when you put someone from "Industry A" in charge of "Industry B"...Pete did not have the background, expertise or pre-requisite knowledge of the behaviour of the gaming community and what the site 's purpose was.

    Remember when billionaire Sumner Redstone took over Midway several years ago ? He ran that company into the ground because he thought his general business management and cost-cutting expertise could turn the company around. In truth he had no clue what a gaming-based company was all about. That would be like me trying to run a gym that trains boxers....I would be totally out of my element.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    Agree, there are many scores that need to be looked into...I cited a few that have gnawed at me for 10-15 years depending on when the score claims were recognized by a TG referee.

    I "mostly" trust Stephen Knox...his integrity is impeccable. The only caveat against Stephen is something that I learned from Ron Corcoran back when I was not a referee but submitting 2600 scores to Ron (who was the TG referee for the Atari/Intellivision platforms in the pre-2001 era).

    Ron told me that there were "some" records in his original Snipercade database (the 2600 records were maintained off-TG back in those days and were only manually imported after Ron's departure) which were NOT posted to the list of 2600 top scorers. He said that both he and Stephen felt that if their higher scores were listed that would scare off competition and would not be good for TG.
    Hey Robert - I just stumbled across this thread and your response above (from over a month ago) - anyhow, I have no recollection on the conversation you are mentioning above. I'm not sure what scores were being held back - Id like to know more if you can remember?

    The only potential scores that were not transferred to the Snipercade site that I was aware of was from a website run by a guy named 'Sam'. He started an early site tracking Atari high scores (and ultimately other platforms) - I *believe* there was some thought of him being a TG Ref for a brief period of time, but Sam couldnt commit. I have a Pole Position 8 lap score on the Atari 800 which took a loooong time for me to get (0 crashes). Its not perfect but atleast on NTSC I dont think there was more than another 200-300 points one could get. Shortly after Sam posted my score (105550 I believe) someone with no evidence told Sam he got over 110,000. Sam posted the score even though I told him it was impossible(though on PAL the timer runs slower so you can get higher scores).

    Anyhow - as we started to merge our high score sites (I had a Colecovision and Intellisivion site), I told Ron we shouldnt accept anything from Sam. Thats the only "hold back" conversation I remember having.

    Anyhow - its old news, but your story piqued my interest.
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
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    Quote Originally Posted by goochman View Post
    Hey Robert - I just stumbled across this thread and your response above (from over a month ago) - anyhow, I have no recollection on the conversation you are mentioning above. I'm not sure what scores were being held back - Id like to know more if you can remember.


    RTM REPLY - Hi Stephen !! I know the exact conversation with Ron...here goes.

    Back when Ron still was maintaining the old "Snipercade" format, where you would see your performance relative to others easily in 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc as it was one long running list...

    I was submitting as many 2600 scores as I could beating whichever existing ones I thought that I had a chance to or knew that I could based on previous accomplishments pre-TG. One of the titles was "Star Ship" (2 separate words).

    I submitted what I felt were OK scores enough to surpass the then-lead scores by Lafe Travis, but Ron told me that on that title and some others both he had Stephen (yourself) had higher scores not entered into the "Snipercade" file as it would scare away competition. And I remember that anecdote well as it was the very first time Ron told me something in my pre-referee days that lead me not to fully trust him.

    You and I never verbally spoke as far as I recall, unless there was some 3-way conference call with Ron that I have long since forgotten about.
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    [QUOTE=goochman;917308The only potential scores that were not transferred to the Snipercade site that I was aware of was from a website run by a guy named 'Sam'. He started an early site tracking Atari high scores (and ultimately other platforms) - I *believe* there was some thought of him being a TG Ref for a brief period of time, but Sam couldnt commit.[/QUOTE]



    RTM REPLY - I remember the name of this person well...Sam Hartman (or Hartmann). He was if memory serves from a far off place like Australia and maintained his own off-site scoreboard or list of scores.

    There was talk at some point about the importing of his scores into the TG database but ultimately that was shot down as these were more "affiliate" scores and unverifiable as per TG standards so they were never imported.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - Hi Stephen !! I know the exact conversation with Ron...here goes.

    Back when Ron still was maintaining the old "Snipercade" format, where you would see your performance relative to others easily in 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc as it was one long running list...

    I was submitting as many 2600 scores as I could beating whichever existing ones I thought that I had a chance to or knew that I could based on previous accomplishments pre-TG. One of the titles was "Star Ship" (2 separate words).

    I submitted what I felt were OK scores enough to surpass the then-lead scores by Lafe Travis, but Ron told me that on that title and some others both he had Stephen (yourself) had higher scores not entered into the "Snipercade" file as it would scare away competition. And I remember that anecdote well as it was the very first time Ron told me something in my pre-referee days that lead me not to fully trust him.

    You and I never verbally spoke as far as I recall, unless there was some 3-way conference call with Ron that I have long since forgotten about.
    Good memory on Sams last name - that was him.

    Now here is something interesting to add to your story - Ive never played Star Ship. I looked through my screenshots and also loaded the game into Stella. Anything Ron told you about that particular game and myself was not true. I also would've made a pretty big stink about scores I accomplished not making it on to the list at that time, so him stating that some of my scores were not published due to them being too high again was not true. IMHO, Ron prided himself on having the high score on certain titles and was going to ensure it stayed that way (my personal opinion :) ).

    The only time I made an argument not to include scores into the DB had to deal with issues of evidence(Sams site). For better or worse we took the previous Guinness and TG scores as gospel, but anything that came 3rd party from outside those sources I would argue shouldnt be included. Not that I made the final decision on any of that.

    Anyhow - thanks for sharing that tidbit. I think Ron def was including additional names on 'decisions' to make his case stronger, but Im 99.9999% sure I didnt agree with Ron to hold back certain scores (unless there is another Stephen involved here). Id also add that honestly I didnt go after that many scores. I prob have about 5-10 scores that I spent alot of time on (2600 Spiderman, Gorf, Dig Dug and Atari 800 Gorf, Pole Position, Defender, Dig Dug) - I didnt have alot of 'super scores' like you and a few others did.
    Goochman
    TG Senior Adviser Atari 800/XL/XE '03-'08
    TG Colecovision/Intellivision Referee '98-'03
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    Wow...this means that some of the earliest conversations that I had with Ron in my pre-referee days contained some untruths.

    Geez, Louise, can't trust anything coming from that man, it seems. I have a pretty clear memory of what he said to me, he just did not give me a totally truthful response. Just peachy :(
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    DRAGSTER: Todd Rogers 35th Anniversary Guinness World Record Story

    Checkout the full story here: https://youtu.be/bmXFb-ElXm8


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    EMP Valkyrie Robyn - 2nd Dynasty
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