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Answers regarding Kaboom, Donkey Kong & Robert Mruczek

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - I've believed that Todd did that score since I think the very late 1990's when his presence was first made known to me, even before I was a TG staffer...I never had a reason to doubt it, to be honest. However, admittedly, I never saw it happen.

    It's like the 1M "Grand Slam" on arcade "Paperboy" by Phil Britt or the 32M TGTS "Star Wars" by David Palmer...I never saw either but I am 100% positive that these were done, especially after having the privilege to speak to each via conference call many years back while I was chief referee and with Walter on the line.

    Recent analysis by "Omnigamer" is compelling. No doubt.

    I've seen so many over-the-top performances over the years, including some never witnessed by anyone at TG as they were never submitted back in the day...someone completing arcade "Cliffhanger" while playing the entire game behind their back...a fellow high-school student's absolute mastery of arcade "Omega Race " so dominant that he was at the 4.5M mark on his 1st or 2nd life. There are many such recollections I have of watching video game mastery over the past 40+ years on the arcade, console, PC, hand-held and even pinball platforms.

    My personal best on Gameboy Tetris on Level 9 High 5 is more than 72K consisting of 6 Tetrads and a triple and I do not believe that anyone has even come close to that in TG history.

    I know these scores to be true. I know the gamers that achieved these scores. So I never take for granted certain claims or anecdotal evidence until the writing is on the wall that completely debunks it...like my own anecdote from a high school "Tempest" master who boasted about what happens on "Tempest" AFTER you finish level green 96. Imagine my embarrassment in regaling the TG forum with tales of the Orange, White and Rainbow stages that followed...how embarrassing :(

    Honestly, I have to believe the 5.51. I would be personally devastated if it were not so.
    Thanks Robert. Sure there can be a ton of "over-the-top" performances. That happens and I dont think anyone here thinks they dont happen. Ive seen amazing gameplay from a variety of people in the last 35 years as well. Ive also heard about 3 million point DK scores, a 6 million point PacMan score, a 20 million galaga score and a 2+ million Frogger score. Where/How can you discern the differences then? Most have done it by witnessing it right? Steve was called out by Billy IIRC when he watched him play and said there was no way he got that score. I know you know there are a ton of obviously fake scores from back in the day just as there are plenty of amazing legit scores. I just personally feel at some point when you have so much that has come up in the past and so much that has been presented now its not unreasonable or unfair for people to expect something more at this point. Its nothing personal at all.
    Dan Desjardins
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    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234 View Post
    I just personally feel at some point when you have so much that has come up in the past and so much that has been presented now its not unreasonable or unfair for people to expect something more at this point. Its nothing personal at all.


    RTM REPLY - Well, you're right about this...it's nothing personal, in this case. I agree. "Calling out" a score has been done several times in the past, some quite memorable, some under-the-radar. And the results have been mixed as well...some scores failed the challenge, others passed, and the jury is still out on some.

    I think at this point the best thing to do is wait and see how this transpires over the course of the next few weeks, maybe longer. I am hopeful that a re-attempt will occur at some point, and I am equally hopeful that Todd will prove his detractors incorrect.

    But by the same token (no pun intended), it can easily become personal when "every" score is called out. I cite here the 32.67 second "Barnstorming" game 1B verified result from the Atari time deca. I personally watched that one at least twice to be sure. I watched all of his submissions from that event, from his amazing "Boxing" performance to "Superman" and all the rest. Todd's an awesome Atari 2600 player, of that I have no doubt. But practically speaking, as you said it's nothing personal", the referee in me from back in that era of my involvement with TG did call into question several specific scores which I cited earlier in this thread.

    Fair is fair, and in the spirit of transparency they were removed from the TG database at some point after much consideration was given to provide documentation. Unfortunately in the process his "Barnstorming" record was lost which I am personally annoyed at due to the lack of due diligence by the TG staffer who did that. But that issue aside, I was witness to his skills during this event, and he nearly pulled off a perfect score on all the titles involved.

    This is no Jeffrey Yee situation, nor is it a Steve Sanders situation or a Brett Watt situation. I'm just as anxious to see a great "Dragster" performance as everyone else here is. But I'm not going to be banging the war drums until that day happens either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - Well, you're right about this...it's nothing personal, in this case. I agree. "Calling out" a score has been done several times in the past, some quite memorable, some under-the-radar. And the results have been mixed as well...some scores failed the challenge, others passed, and the jury is still out on some.

    I think at this point the best thing to do is wait and see how this transpires over the course of the next few weeks, maybe longer. I am hopeful that a re-attempt will occur at some point, and I am equally hopeful that Todd will prove his detractors incorrect.

    But by the same token (no pun intended), it can easily become personal when "every" score is called out. I cite here the 32.67 second "Barnstorming" game 1B verified result from the Atari time deca. I personally watched that one at least twice to be sure. I watched all of his submissions from that event, from his amazing "Boxing" performance to "Superman" and all the rest. Todd's an awesome Atari 2600 player, of that I have no doubt. But practically speaking, as you said it's nothing personal", the referee in me from back in that era of my involvement with TG did call into question several specific scores which I cited earlier in this thread.

    Fair is fair, and in the spirit of transparency they were removed from the TG database at some point after much consideration was given to provide documentation. Unfortunately in the process his "Barnstorming" record was lost which I am personally annoyed at due to the lack of due diligence by the TG staffer who did that. But that issue aside, I was witness to his skills during this event, and he nearly pulled off a perfect score on all the titles involved.

    This is no Jeffrey Yee situation, nor is it a Steve Sanders situation or a Brett Watt situation. I'm just as anxious to see a great "Dragster" performance as everyone else here is. But I'm not going to be banging the war drums until that day happens either.
    I agree we are pretty much at a wait and see point. Pretty much quoting you as I am hopeful that a re-attempt will occur at some point, and I am equally hopeful that Todd will prove his detractors incorrect.

    I guess at this point Robert with ALL the other issues I can understand why people call it all out. Barnstorming is a great example of all of this. There are so many references in that atariage thread that I can find that talk about "prototype" carts and issues regarding that original 32.04 Barnstorming time that I feel most aren't comfortable with any record that is set now that isn't able to be verified completely. For example this 32.67 time. I know you saw it but as I mentioned before can you say with 100% certainty that score wasn't done on perhaps a "prototype" cart and Todd wasn't aware he was using one?

    I am sure that Todd is a very excellent Atari 2600 gamer. Again using Barnstorming as an example because he is an excellent gamer and getting a 32.50 and 32.67 is something he can do pretty much every time then I just cannot fathom why he wont do it on video and post it for all to see (which was what everyone was expecting to happen in the threads I've referenced before right?) There are so many places he can do this now so why not do it? (TG, Twitch, Youtube, Facebook, etc?). Anyway as stated above I am hopeful this re-attempt occurs and he does recreate his Dragster time. I will be donating to it when it does happen.
    Last edited by danman1234; 08-12-2017 at 01:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234 View Post
    Barnstorming is a great example of all of this. There are so many references in that atariage thread that I can find that talk about "prototype" carts and issues regarding that original 32.04 Barnstorming time that I feel most aren't comfortable with any record that is set now that isn't able to be verified completely. For example this 32.67 time. I know you saw it but as I mentioned before can you say with 100% certainty that score wasn't done on perhaps a "prototype" cart and Todd wasn't aware he was using one.


    RTM REPLY - The answer is that I cannot. I had entrusted Ron to assist with the technical aspects of the event...he received a copy of all the AVI's from me as well. Whereas I verified the performance itself, he was entrusted with the technical elements, so my faith was placed in TG's worldwide Atari/Intellivision editor. If you can't trust your own staff then...? Sounds naive, yes, but there were like 5 TG staffers at the time one of which did bupkis with 99.999% of TG forum and validation work (one guess who) whereas at least Walter pitched in from time to time with opinions and decisions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - The answer is that I cannot. I had entrusted Ron to assist with the technical aspects of the event...he received a copy of all the AVI's from me as well. Whereas I verified the performance itself, he was entrusted with the technical elements, so my faith was placed in TG's worldwide Atari/Intellivision editor. If you can't trust your own staff then...? Sounds naive, yes, but there were like 5 TG staffers at the time one of which did bupkis with 99.999% of TG forum and validation work (one guess who) whereas at least Walter pitched in from time to time with opinions and decisions.
    Absolutely and I dont think it sounds naive at all. It was just a question I know has been brought up before. Still it would have been awesome to see all those Deca AVI's if they were still available. Everyone in that Deca put up some really great scores/times.

    Appreciate the response sir.
    Dan Desjardins
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - The answer is that I cannot. I had entrusted Ron to assist with the technical aspects of the event...he received a copy of all the AVI's from me as well. Whereas I verified the performance itself, he was entrusted with the technical elements, so my faith was placed in TG's worldwide Atari/Intellivision editor. If you can't trust your own staff then...?
    Unfortunately, any verification that involves the phrase "entrusted Ron" is extremely suspect to a number of us in the TG community. Ron Corcoran is currently serving a 30 year prison sentence in Arizona for crimes of moral turpitude, calling into question all verification work he did with TG as the worldwide Atari/Intellivision editor. That isn't the fault of any of the players who's scores he verified, but to paraphrase you, "if you can't trust the TG staff that did verifications then...?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by gstrain View Post
    Unfortunately, any verification that involves the phrase "entrusted Ron" is extremely suspect to a number of us in the TG community. Ron Corcoran is currently serving a 30 year prison sentence in Arizona for crimes of moral turpitude, calling into question all verification work he did with TG as the worldwide Atari/Intellivision editor. That isn't the fault of any of the players who's scores he verified, but to paraphrase you, "if you can't trust the TG staff that did verifications then...?"


    RTM REPLY - this is definitely a "can of worms". Without re-opening the sordid details of the matter, he had clearly fooled all of his fellow TG staff for the years that he had been associated with TG, and from what I know, "Snipercade", which he ran separate from TG and which was ultimately imported into TG, started in the late 1990's, so I believe that for at least 5 solid years he fooled everyone at TG including his longtime friends Stephen Knox and Brien King.

    I am aware of at minimum a number of performances that he himself completed which I've questioned in the past, and a few that he validated in his capacity as referee, but the full extent of the damage is impossible to ascertain.

    In "real life", if a police officer or a prosecutor is found to be dirty, or worst of all a sitting judge, then it immediately calls into question all previous arrests, testimonies in court, prosecution efforts (of lack thereof), and judicial decisions for the past several years and then some. Arrests, imprisonments...some or all could in theory be overturned depending on how egregious the behaviour and ethics was of the municipal employee in question.

    Makes me wonder if the same should apply to a volunteer referee who, like myself, worked off-site and with management's "trust" that they were behaving in the best interest of the company with every decision, adjudication, rejection, etc, and without bias.

    It's not easy to do that. At minimum bias can show, such as reviewing performances based on which are "high profile" versus next-in-queue, although sometimes there is a good reason for doing so. But that aside, and speaking strictly about Ron here, the sheer impact of what he touched as far as score adjudication (never mind his own submissions) is in the thousands (of scores).

    My own scores were sent to him in good faith, all VHS recorded...easily 125-150 VHS tapes if not more...and in the end when the police returned them he only had ONE (1) single tape of mine...likely the very last one I sent which, to add insult to injury, never made it into the TG database. Where my 125+ VHS tapes ended up, or the hundreds from Todd and other trusting gamers, we will sadly never know. But his utter breach of trust with us, never mind the horrifying breach of trust with members of his own family, cannot be understated or fully ascertained.

    Personally, I would be ticked off to the high heavens if my hundreds of hours of hard work on my 2600 submissions were ever removed from the TG database, as I am sure that many, MANY other gamers would be as well for what they submitted to Ron. A complete purge of all scores that he adjudicated would be a disaster and a disservice to the many gamers who placed their trust in TG.

    A far more fitting solution...wipe out all of his scores, lock-stock-and-barrel as the expression goes. He betrayed myself as chief referee, he betrayed Walter who entrusted him to build the system with Brien King and maintain a senior leadership and Board member status for years, he betrayed the gaming community, but most of all, he betrayed the backbone of his very existence...his own family.

    It's like the "Eleanor Ripley" character suggesting to nuke the colony in the movie "Aliens"...it's the only way to be sure.
    Last edited by RTM; 08-13-2017 at 04:06 PM.
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    I wonder why @toddrogers has not stepped in to defend himself on the dispute thread?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - this is definitely a "can of worms". Without re-opening the sordid details of the matter, he had clearly fooled all of his fellow TG staff for the years that he had been associated with TG, and from what I know, "Snipercade", which he ran separate from TG and which was ultimately imported into TG, started in the late 1990's, so I believe that for at least 5 solid years he fooled everyone at TG including his longtime friends Stephen Knox and Brien King.

    I am aware of at minimum a number of performances that he himself completed which I've questioned in the past, and a few that he validated in his capacity as referee, but the full extent of the damage is impossible to ascertain.

    In "real life", if a police officer or a prosecutor is found to be dirty, or worst of all a sitting judge, then it immediately calls into question all previous arrests, testimonies in court, prosecution efforts (of lack thereof), and judicial decisions for the past several years and then some. Arrests, imprisonments...some or all could in theory be overturned depending on how egregious the behaviour and ethics was of the municipal employee in question.

    Makes me wonder if the same should apply to a volunteer referee who, like myself, worked off-site and with management's "trust" that they were behaving in the best interest of the company with every decision, adjudication, rejection, etc, and without bias.

    It's not easy to do that. At minimum bias can show, such as reviewing performances based on which are "high profile" versus next-in-queue, although sometimes there is a good reason for doing so. But that aside, and speaking strictly about Ron here, the sheer impact of what he touched as far as score adjudication (never mind his own submissions) is in the thousands (of scores).

    My own scores were sent to him in good faith, all VHS recorded...easily 125-150 VHS tapes if not more...and in the end when the police returned them he only had ONE (1) single tape of mine...likely the very last one I sent which, to add insult to injury, never made it into the TG database. Where my 125+ VHS tapes ended up, or the hundreds from Todd and other trusting gamers, we will sadly never know. But his utter breach of trust with us, never mind the horrifying breach of trust with members of his own family, cannot be understated or fully ascertained.

    Personally, I would be ticked off to the high heavens if my hundreds of hours of hard work on my 2600 submissions were ever removed from the TG database, as I am sure that many, MANY other gamers would be as well for what they submitted to Ron. A complete purge of all scores that he adjudicated would be a disaster and a disservice to the many gamers who placed their trust in TG.

    A far more fitting solution...wipe out all of his scores, lock-stock-and-barrel as the expression goes. He betrayed myself as chief referee, he betrayed Walter who entrusted him to build the system with Brien King and maintain a senior leadership and Board member status for years, he betrayed the gaming community, but most of all, he betrayed the backbone of his very existence...his own family.

    It's like the "Eleanor Ripley" character suggesting to nuke the colony in the movie "Aliens"...it's the only way to be sure.
    Robert - Mr. Knox here, hope things are well on your end.

    There are probably a few things I could clear up here, but I think most of these subjects have been beaten to death. I only knew Ron for a few years before he was arrested, have no had any contact since.

    Im curious how the TG database has evolved since Walter stepped away - I know a # of my old scores disappeared without rhyme or reason, and no I never entered any of my own scores. I was the ref for the Colecovision and Intellisivion platforms back then - I had a ton of tapes (mostly from Tom Duncan) and when I left the referee biz I forgot who I shipped them to, but Im pretty sure they are lost.

    I think there have been a few questions on how alot of the early scores got registered. I was around when the database was taking shape and helped review the data model. It wasnt perfect but for the most part people were working for free to get this running. My impression is the initial 2600 scores came from the published record that we had. From there people would submit photos, then digital pics(shortly there after videos were required). It wasnt quite the wild west like some think it may have been, but it was a handful of people working in their spare time to try and get things going. Its alot easier today when you can use you phone to record a result - back then not so much.

    I think I saw in another thread that current TG may not have a record of who entered what score - I know the DB captured that information way back and even had a log of changes so not sure how that disappeared. They still have a # of my odd ball scores I posted for platforms like the Atari ST which could only have come from the original database.

    enough rambling for now - good seeing notes from Todd and Robert.
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    Now this intrigues me. @goochman , would you be willing to make a list of some of those scores that you said disappeared for no reason and also who some of the names of the old refs? I'm only asking because in the last few days I've been mentioning that there has to be some of the refs from the old TG with evidence still around that could be applied to some the older scores helping back up their validity. You could PM me as well if you wanted. I'm very curious about the old TG. Recently I've seen several of you speak up on TG so if there is a collection of videos/documents you all would know or could possibly come to conclusions on there whereabouts. Thanks
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