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Dispute: John McAllister - M.A.M.E. - Crazy Kong [Set 1] - Points - Player: Benjamin J Walbeehm - Score: 638700

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 07-29-2017, 12:53 AM
    #11
    This definitely falls under "reclassification" instead of "removal." Or even better..."rule change." I'm not entirely convinced the stage-skip rule was explicitly defined during the time Ben Jos and Jeff Wolfe submitted their scores.

    1) Mark Longridge's TGTS rules make no mention of a stage-skip prohibition: //cubeman.org/tgts.txt

    2) In Ben Jos' MARP submission, from December 2001, he claims to be using TG settings. Why would he stage skip if it was against TG rules? He was active at TG...this wasn't a one-off submission that could explain his unfamiliarity with the rules.

    3) The 2nd place score, 624,000 by Jeff Wolfe, also attempts to use the stage skip on 22-1. However, he misjudges the jump and loses his last man without successfully completing the skip. This score was done in July 2000 and also submitted at MARP. He might be able to to confirm what the official rules were back then. Paging @Milehighdt

    4) My memory is really fuzzy on this one, so I could really use the help of @RTM and/or @Barthax to clarify this point: I seem to recall that the only reason the incredibly rare conveyor skip is included in the rules is that someone told Robert Mruczek that it was possible. I don't know who ultimately added the stage-skip rules, but it might have been during the Mruczek era...which I believe started quite some time after Ben Jos' score.
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  2. 07-29-2017, 01:45 AM
    #12
    Mark Longridge was the sole MAME referee until his departure. However, he departed TG before any MAME stuff was on the main TG site.

    The rules on the scoreboard were unlikely to have been publicly-accessible until after mid-2004 when the Brien King version of the web site came online: //web.archive.org/web/200408112...ndex.aspx?c=62 . The MAME scores from Mark Longridge's site weren't included on the initial versions but were later imported (possibly still 2004).

    The prior version ( //web.archive.org/web/200312010...laxies.com:80/ ) could not be edited live. RTM has described this version in the past (from my memory of his memory...) as requiring a third-party web dev to make any changes to the site - scores weren't published and rules weren't updated due to this.

    So we know that Mark Longridge didn't have a published version of the rules which included the level-skip rule. However, we don't know when those rules appeared on the Brien King version of the site. It's quite possible that rule was added during that gap.

    What we do know is that the rule is in the 2005 MAME Decathlon: //www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...s-and-Settings


    Quote Originally Posted by xelnia View Post
    This definitely falls under "reclassification" instead of "removal." Or even better..."rule change." I'm not entirely convinced the stage-skip rule was explicitly defined during the time Ben Jos and Jeff Wolfe submitted their scores.

    1) Mark Longridge's TGTS rules make no mention of a stage-skip prohibition: //cubeman.org/tgts.txt

    2) In Ben Jos' MARP submission, from December 2001, he claims to be using TG settings. Why would he stage skip if it was against TG rules? He was active at TG...this wasn't a one-off submission that could explain his unfamiliarity with the rules.

    3) The 2nd place score, 624,000 by Jeff Wolfe, also attempts to use the stage skip on 22-1. However, he misjudges the jump and loses his last man without successfully completing the skip. This score was done in July 2000 and also submitted at MARP. He might be able to to confirm what the official rules were back then. Paging @Milehighdt

    4) My memory is really fuzzy on this one, so I could really use the help of @RTM and/or @Barthax to clarify this point: I seem to recall that the only reason the incredibly rare conveyor skip is included in the rules is that someone told Robert Mruczek that it was possible. I don't know who ultimately added the stage-skip rules, but it might have been during the Mruczek era...which I believe started quite some time after Ben Jos' score.

    Are you on my radar?
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
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  3. 07-29-2017, 01:50 AM
    #13
    Minor (lack of information) update. Crazy Kong wasn't on the TG main scoreboard in October 2004: //web.archive.org/web/200410220...aspx?c=44&gl=C

    Are you on my radar?
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
  4. 07-29-2017, 05:44 AM
    #14
    I vote to create a new track allowing the use of the glitch. This can be the first score entered into that track. Seems like the right way to honor a pioneer.

    If @redelf creates the track, I will help fund it.
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  5. 08-19-2017, 11:10 AM
    #15
    I'm guessing that the big hold up is that people don't want the score removed. Since TG wont say what they are going to do with the score at this time it will just stay in limbo. If TG will say that if people accept this as being a bad score for this track and that they will move it over to the other created track then people might vote on it.

    For now I took down my vote because I don't want the score removed from the database, I just want it moved to the correct track. And until TG says that they will move it instead of removing the score I will not vote on this.
  6. 08-19-2017, 11:22 AM
    #16
    I'm in the camp that I'd rather just see the rules amended to allow the skip,. The only reason not to is because of the argument that not everyone at the time would be competing under the same rules. Which is true, but if you look at the submission list, there is only a very small amount of people on the list who could even execute this glitch appropriately, and those users are all already top competitors on this track anyway. Adds another element of skill IMO.
    Craig Rout Gallant

    Current verified TG WRs: 58

    My Youtube channel: //www.youtube.com/CraigARG
    MAME World Records channel: //www.youtube.com/MAMEWorldRecords
  7. 09-06-2017, 11:19 AM
    #17
    An early glitch allowed this dispute to be cancelled. We have reopened it as it still needs to be resolved. The fact that a player cannot defend a score does not mean a score cannot be disputed. We can still be sensitive to the fact that the player in question has passed away.

    We cannot guarantee a result before people vote!

    The skip level trick was clearly used deliberately. This could be called a cheat or an exploit. Some have called for a track to be created that allows this.

    Here are some questions:

    Is it because the player was highly-regarded?

    Is it because there has been an ‘unwritten rule’, allowing this 'trick', that existed before the rules were written?

    If we allow this trick to be used on a specific track, how many times should the player be allowed to use it? Just once?

    Can anyone provide examples of other scores in which a glitch/exploit similar to this one was acceptable?

    If we create this track, will its reasoning be consistent with other discussions about glitches, exploits, cheats and the 'spirit of the game'?
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  8. 09-06-2017, 01:14 PM
    #18
    As stated below this score was listed on Mark Longridge's cubeman.org Twin Galaxies MAME World Rankings site which was the "de facto" early Twin Galaxies MAME record list (//cubeman.org/mame.txt). The rules and settings as listed at the time on the cubeman.org site (//cubeman.org/rules.txt and //cubeman.org/tgts.txt) did not prohibit the use of the level skip on Crazy Kong, so I agree that it looks like that rule was added to the MAME track after Ben Jos originally submitted his score and it was already listed in the Twin Galaxies MAME World Rankings.

    Frankly I think the "no level skip" rule for Crazy Kong is really stupid, especially on the kill screen. If the game is going to ***** you will a kill screen shouldn't you be able to ***** it back by skipping that level and buying yourself a couple more screens? So I'd be ok with either changing the rule set to allow the level skip or creating a separate track where it is allowed.

    -George
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  9. 09-06-2017, 01:21 PM
    #19
    If you allow the trick, I think it should be allowed as many times as the gamer choses. The fact is doing this trick is risky and once you learn the game you actually have less chance of death playing the level straight up than you do trying to skip. Notice how in this gameplay the only time the skip was used was to get past the kill screen.
    "Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good"

    Visit my YouTube channel for videos of over 150 classic arcade games, most of which you won't see at your local arcade. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh4...56xV5To9gPqsLA
  10. 09-06-2017, 02:07 PM
    #20
    Definitely move it to a new track.
    As DB said it's just a trick people use to get past the kill screen and sometimes point press the pies (hammer drop)

    DKF allows it so no reason why TG shouldn't. Silly rule to have in the first place but that's beyond the point :)
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