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Dispute: Marc Cohen - Sega Genesis / Sega Mega Drive - Pac-Mania - NTSC - Points - Player: Ron Corcoran - Score: 4,451,480

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 14,123
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaGe View Post
    Interesting. I'm not sure what to think now regarding being able to continue after board 19.

    But, the submitter's history of scores that were removed from the database in the past due to being false claims / wrong settings (some removed by myself) draws immediate attention to this extremely high score for this game, if played under correct settings. I always figured that if he did progress past 19 somehow, he played on "Easy" and used the Pac booster.

    That said, there's no way to prove it. Even though I "know" he didn't get this score, I believe this has to fall into the "Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done" category. It has to fall into that category, for all the legit "crazy scores" on here. If you're someone who has a ridiculously high score on a game, achieved legitimately-- if someone questioned it years down the road, you wouldn't want to lose that score...just because some random dude can't achieve it. Dave is judging this way. He's looking for unquestionable evidence to remove a score. That's why, as much as I hate to do it, I'm going to remove my vote.

    Sorry Marc. I thought we'd finally get this score out (at least there will always be a "dispute" next to it). Let's pretend his score doesn't exist. You're in first place!
    Appreciated your candor, my friend...You know me well enough, that its not about 1st place here. Its about the integrity of the scoreboard and honest competition. :)

    Still, I have provided here a full game on video the way it is suppose to be played under its normal conditions. (No skip a level shortcut, no emulation, and no Genie) Really dont know what else I can add for any additional evidence here to prove the game ends after 19. I am open to suggestions by anyone of course, as I really dont know what else I can provide.

    Meanwhile, I am sticking to this dispute, and more than happy for someone out there to do exactly what I did to prove me wrong here. Hopefully, since you and I are at an equal playing field with skill at Pac-Mania , you are up for it RaGe! :)
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  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 3,497


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade View Post
    Appreciated your candor, my friend...You know me well enough, that its not about 1st place here. Its about the integrity of the scoreboard and honest competition. :)

    Still, I have provided here a full game on video the way it is suppose to be played under its normal conditions. (No skip a level shortcut, no emulation, and no Genie) Really dont know what else I can add for any additional evidence here to prove the game ends after 19. I am open to suggestions by anyone of course, as I really dont know what else I can provide.

    Meanwhile, I am sticking to this dispute, and more than happy for someone out there to do exactly what I did to prove me wrong here. Hopefully, since you and I are at an equal playing field with skill at Pac-Mania , you are up for it RaGe! :)
    Here is my opinion on it all:

    Its the history of this player that has me concerned more than the score but alas I feel that won't mean anything here and no one is going to be able to get a lot of detail about this from Ron I'm guessing. It seems a lot of scores have been removed from him in the past due to stuff Rage just stated "the submitter's history of scores that were removed from the database in the past due to being false claims / wrong settings (some removed by myself) draws immediate attention to this extremely high score for this game". was any video presented to any refs to have this score validated in the past? If it was removed before it probably should be removed now.

    Rage - If someone questions a TGSAP score down the road the evidence should be there for all to see going forward. Not locked away to end up with a million questions later which is the how you fix the the "if you're someone who has a ridiculously high score on a game, achieved legitimately-- if someone questioned it years down the road, you wouldn't want to lose that score." statement.

    They get to SEE that it was achieved legitimately and if it wasn't they have something to dispute. They do not have to go around this air of mystery and doubt always wondering was it a ref who just self-entered his scores? did they use some leeching trick? was it on the right settings? etc, etc, etc..

    Now with regards to the Vizzed game the replay does show a restart from one Round 19 - Round 1 at 1,257,030 points (33:11) into the video but this guy also appears to have played a lot of Pac-Mania as he stated he knew how eating the ghosts/etc were influencing the special items (Which he said did not happen on the Genesis version). His gameplay was superb and he made maximum use of getting multiple 7k ghost eats (Which is that possible on the something not Vizzed? Is that a rom dump being played in an EMU or something else?)

    Now while I'm leaning to voting yes because I hope its all taken into consideration (including his past) even though we will always have the "well it maybe possible" statement hanging out there. Was evidence of this score presented to other referees when asked?. That would certainly help out with my vote and if that answer was NO it needs to be removed regardless if anyone thinks its "possible" or not

    Now on this note this is a perfect example of why ALL pre-TGSAP scores need to be archived and only the scores that actually are part of the new (and I would say much improved) system are considered "premium". Leave all the others for legacy purposes because even if this score claim was for example 999 999,999 points it wont matter because "Well its POSSIBLE you know". This is the really the only way in my opinion to make this scoreboard seem 100% correct/legit now and while a lot of real scores may get archived its really the only way to ensure its integrity going forward.

    Thanks All I know they get pretty long :)
    Dan Desjardins
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade View Post
    Meanwhile, I am sticking to this dispute, and more than happy for someone out there to do exactly what I did to prove me wrong here. Hopefully, since you and I are at an equal playing field with skill at Pac-Mania , you are up for it RaGe! :)
    I would like to see RaGe play it both the way Marc played and the way I played to see if his results are the same or not.

    Other random thoughts... Could it be that Marc's cart is a different revision that may have a bug that prevents continuation? I assume you already verified your A button works correctly elsewhere :P Maybe there is some other unknown criteria about the game that causes or prevents continuation? - Maybe someone can decompile the code and see how it was written?
  4. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 14,123
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138 View Post

    Other random thoughts... Could it be that Marc's cart is a different revision that may have a bug that prevents continuation? I assume you already verified your A button works correctly elsewhere :P Maybe there is some other unknown criteria about the game that causes or prevents continuation? - Maybe someone can decompile the code and see how it was written?
    There is only one version cart for the Genesis...manufactured by Tengen back in 1991. This is the year I bought it, back when I was in college. Here is a google pick of it. An exact match of mine or anyone elses of course.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Could there be a bug problem specifically with my cart?

    Hmmm...Well I did drink a lot of beer in college, so its possible some "Buds" spilled inside the chips. (Although everything still works great 26 years later using that other alcohol you dont consume - Witch Hazel) Oh, my bad, you said "bugs", not Bud. (j/k)

    Verified my A button?

    For many years, I only own one working Genesis controller that I use every time to play/submit for Genesis tracks. All buttons are fully operational. How else can I compete with RaGe in those racing games?

    Can someone decompile the code?

    That would be interesting to see. I would be the last person to ask to do this.
  5. VERIFIED Honored Veteran Credibility: 27,373


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    Just to throw some light into the mix:

    1) As a ref, when setting up tracks, Ron Corcoran would prefer the rules to reflect the easiest possible settings.
    2) The "Special Rules" notation in the current rules was something started by Kelly Flewin who only became a referee in 2003/2004, long after the score.

    So the score was potentially originally valid but has been incorrectly invalidated by a rule change.

    Are you on my radar?
    I'd rather be last on every game than throw my time away chasing only one score.
  6. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 14,123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Just to throw some light into the mix:

    1) As a ref, when setting up tracks, Ron Corcoran would prefer the rules to reflect the easiest possible settings.
    2) The "Special Rules" notation in the current rules was something started by Kelly Flewin who only became a referee in 2003/2004, long after the score.

    So the score was potentially originally valid but has been incorrectly invalidated by a rule change.
    I get what you are saying Pete, since you were around to witness Ron's and Kelly's methods and their ways. I wasnt, as it was many years before my time here.

    IF all of this you mentioned is provable fact that rules were indeed changed mid-stream, then everyone who submitted after Ron are not playing the game on a fair playing field. Therefore, I would rather have this entire track gone and wiped off the face of the earth, and start over with a fresh track with no loopholes.

    The easiest settings possible to play this game? Thats an easy one... Id say start at level 1 with no bonus, play on easy, pac-boost always on, and dont forget use those game genie codes for unlimited lives, and to boost the fruit and ghosts to auto-maximum points. Then yes, you can possibly have a 4.4M score and beyond. No problem for anyone, eh?!!! ;)

    I will stick to the occam's razor theory on this on though. The simplest logic here is that a well-known self-verifying referee was careless by holding down that "4" button a second too long, thus giving himself a double "4" entry into the database.
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    Please note that per discussion here http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post914130 the player in question on this dispute is a former TG referee and member of the TG board who had full access to the TG database and who is currently serving a 30 year prison sentence in Arizona for crimes of moral turpitude. I have to agree with RTM's comments on that thread that we should consider removing all of Ron's scores from the TG database, or at the very least those without definitive evidence that they had full video evidence reviewed by another referee and the score was entered by another referee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gstrain View Post
    Please note that per discussion here http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post914130 the player in question on this dispute is a former TG referee and member of the TG board who had full access to the TG database and who is currently serving a 30 year prison sentence in Arizona for crimes of moral turpitude. I have to agree with RTM's comments on that thread that we should consider removing all of Ron's scores from the TG database, or at the very least those without definitive evidence that they had full video evidence reviewed by another referee and the score was entered by another referee.
    I thought about bringing this up, but decided against it. Since it's out here now and part of the evidence, I can legitimately bring my YES vote back.

    The guy is bad news.
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    Everyone here deserves some recognition for keeping this discussion free of emotion. Evidence and opinions are gathering here nicely. Please keep up with the experiments - we are definitely getting somewhere.
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    Without bring emotion or bias in to this conversation, I very much agree to removal of Ron's scores. Integrity of the scoreboard is valued enough to agree that removing his scores would very much help it. Of course, I'm open to rebuttals from my statement.
    The Fisher King
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