thread

Dispute: Dick Moreland - Atari 2600 / VCS - Dragster - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B [Fastest Time] - Player: Todd Rogers - Score: 05.51

User Tag List

Is this a valid dispute?

You may not vote on this poll
    You have no permission to view/vote this poll.
Page 84 of 133 FirstFirst ... 34 74 82 83 84 85 86 94 ... LastLast
Results 831 to 840 of 1327
  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,138
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    227
    Thanks (Received)
    75
    Likes (Received)
    210
    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)
    Follows
    36
    Following
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Omnigamer View Post
    As for the CES or Electronic Thing footage, as far as I know nobody has seen them or can locate them, so that again falls to Todd's word.
    He was there, but there is no evidence he played Dragster there or got a 5.51.


    Also I'll take a look at the code! Thank you! Sad to say I doubt I'll have any more questions, I think you answered everything I needed to know, and enough people have looked at it; both skeptics of Todd and those who want him to be right. Both have come to the same conclusions as you. Something could still be missing, but...honestly, this is pretty much wrapped up.
  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,138
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    227
    Thanks (Received)
    75
    Likes (Received)
    210
    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)
    Follows
    36
    Following
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Didn't mean to appear to single you out Hector, I apologise for that. It's been going on of awhile is all I'm saying. Of course the coding analysis is important, but we won't ever get to see Activisions analysis so bringing it up further is really a moot point. I'm hoping this score is legit and any proof showing that as a result would be awesome.
    More or less you are right. I think most people here agree this is wrapped up. The nice part about this is Todd is willing to prove himself. I'm hoping he gets a 5.51 because if he does, folks like Omni and emu authors like the dude who maintains Stella will want to know how that was possible, and that in itself would be a historic finding, as well as a historic score attempt. And even if Todd gets a 5.57 which there are witnesses who claim he can, even that will be a big deal, as no one -that I know of- has gotten that score.

    I think what we need now is for a way to gather all the evidence, facts, links, questions, answered questions, and put them in a single post or place - maybe more questions can be drawn from it, or at least people can look at it and come to a conclusion. Plus since this is a historic score documenting all this would be very beneficial.
  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,138
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    227
    Thanks (Received)
    75
    Likes (Received)
    210
    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)
    Follows
    36
    Following
    53
    Okay Omni, I got a dumb question for you, in that link (from AtariAge) is that really all the code for this game?
  4. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,000
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    120
    Thanks (Received)
    88
    Likes (Received)
    223
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Follows
    8
    Following
    2
    The full ROM is only 2 kB. Yes; there's not much to it.

    If you took out only the instruction blocks related to gameplay, you could probably fit everything on 2 standard-size sheets of paper. For everything, about 6 pages.
  5. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,138
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    227
    Thanks (Received)
    75
    Likes (Received)
    210
    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)
    Follows
    36
    Following
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Omnigamer View Post
    The full ROM is only 2 kB. Yes; there's not much to it.

    If you took out only the instruction blocks related to gameplay, you could probably fit everything on 2 standard-size sheets of paper. For everything, about 6 pages.
    I figured as much I just wanted to confirm it.
    I have no further questions.

    Here is my summary of the overall code analysis.

    -I think the evidence that has been presented speaks for itself.
    -There are several others who looked at the code from both camps (skeptics and believers alike).
    -They have come to the same conclusions as Omnigamer.
    -The code is so small and reasonably documented that I am 100% certain everything has been considered.

    -There is a possibility that there is an error in the code that everyone else has missed but it is highly unlikely.
    ----I don't think in anyway that the possibility of an error should discount this as evidence.
    ----If anyone is skeptical look at the code yourself, it's small and reasonable documented.

    I'll take a shot at overlooking the assembly, I'll need to refresh on 6502, as well as get a simple
    understanding of Atari 2600 programming. I am willing to bet I won't have any questions that either
    haven't been answered already.

    Thank you!

    For everyone here is the source code again: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/269...7#entry3839626
  6. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,138
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    227
    Thanks (Received)
    75
    Likes (Received)
    210
    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    14 Thread(s)
    Follows
    36
    Following
    53
    Forgive the typos, I keep thinking I can go back and edit my posts. Bummer.
  7. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,000
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    120
    Thanks (Received)
    88
    Likes (Received)
    223
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Follows
    8
    Following
    2
    I want to revisit this post, because it is pretty important to the understanding of this whole thing.

    I was browsing through the archived Activisions on AtariAge ( https://atariage.com/magazines/activisions.html ) and it seems like the timelines for things is... off.

    Up until Volume 5 (Dec 1982), the top listed time for Dragster was always 5.57, shared by 3-4 people, Todd among them. In Volume 5, however, is the first time 5.51 is listed. What I hadn't seen before was on the next page, where it shows that only 2 individuals had claimed the time - Todd not among them. In Volume 6 (Spring 1983), Todd is also added to the list. Volume 7, which to my knowledge is the last issue, doesn't include Dragster at all.


    Also, to provide some more context, Todd claims he achieved the 5.51 in his home on March/April of 1982 (courtesy of his testimony in the video). He also claims he achieved it again at the Electronic Thing show in ~August of 1982. It seems like a pretty significant time discrepancy for the publications if he wasn't credited until Spring 1983. There's also no indication that the other 5.51 players were removed, as he describes, because Dragster is no longer included at all in Volume 7. At the very least, they weren't removed internally until after Spring 1983, which doesn't match with his testimony.
    This gives more credence to the original point made by @D.B. Cooper that the time should not have been entered, or has significant factual errors. As Walter Day describes in the video, the source for this time was the Activisions newsletter. But if that's true, then it should be properly credited to the two other individuals that are first listed for 5.51 as of Dec 1982, with Todd not joining them until Spring 1983. The only indication that the other players' scores were invalidated comes from Todd's own testimony, and is not supported by the publication.

    The timeline also leaves room for doubt. If Todd achieved his times on two separate occasions in 1982, with enough time to send in the picture and develop a relationship with Activision afterward, I find it extremely unlikely that the newsletter would be lagging more than a year behind on that information. Especially given that the December issue has a picture of the office staff with a Christmas Tree, I think the newsletters were developed weeks to a month before publication.

    Either way, there is something wrong with the entry. I don't know where September 1, 1982 comes from for the submission date, and it's not clear that anything else backs it up either. If the adjudication method was Activisions, then the scoreboard should rightfully list the other two individuals as having achieved it in 1982, with Todd in 1983.

    This is separate from the issue of the time not being possible, but shows that the best available historical evidence is in conflict with both Todd's testimony and the listing on this site.

    Clarifications are welcome.
  8. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,552
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    338
    Thanks (Received)
    241
    Likes (Received)
    335
    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Follows
    10
    Following
    8
    Not really a clarification, but a supplementary.

    There's another misnomer with the chronology of Todd's achievements on Dragster. GWR recognizes and Todd has stated in interviews that he has enjoyed an uninterrupted reign as world record holder on Dragster beginning on 1 December 1980.

    http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/...deogame-record

    However, according to the Activisions newsletter Fall 1981, Chuck Hunter Sr and Jr were the world record holders with a time of 5.61. There is a larger spread on the Hunter clan on page 3:

    https://atariage.com/magazines/magaz...&CurrentPage=3

    This is corroborated in How To Master Video Games:

    https://archive.org/stream/book_how_...games_djvu.txt

    From the best I can tell, December 1980 is possibly when Todd had his first sub-5.74 Dragster record verified by Activision, but this wasn't a world record. I'm not sure how this achievement evolved into a claim of being "top scorer" in Dragster dating from December 1980.

    In reference to Todd's history with Activision, Todd already developed a working relationship with Activision before September 1982. There was a YouTube video posted earlier in this thread I believe (Todd Rogers on WLS ABC channel 7 Chicago 1982 - Rare Footage) that features Todd's high school graduation ceremony and acclaim as a multi-game Activision record holder. Todd references this news story in the following interview:

    http://www.gooddealgames.com/intervi...dd_Rogers.html

    He also attends what I presume to be the Summer CES in Chicago, which I assume was in the capacity as an informal Activision ambassador. This would put the news report on 6 or 7 June 1982.

    Todd's rapport with Activision preceding the 5.51 time is also referenced in his recounting of the phone call from Jan Marsella asking about his shifting technique - "[she] called me and she wasn't in her normal cheerful voice but she had more of a serious tone."

    The September 1982 citation for achieving 5.51 comes from at least Todd, as found in this interview:

    "Todd: I’ve held the Dragster record for 30 years as of December 1st. I made the record in December 1, 1980, and I just kept bettering it until I got a 5.51 in September 1982."

    http://thefriendlynecromancer.blogsp...legendary.html

    The connection between September 1982 and 5.51 is mentioned in several other interviews. Before Todd's recent YouTube video, I presumed that he "got" the score on this date, and recognition (verification) followed later. Given Todd's rapport with Activision, it's a little surprising that he was not included in the December 1982 newsletter with a September photo, let alone one dating from months earlier, unless this newsletter was basically type-set and ready to go several months before publication.

    While this information does not directly clarify the question of achieving 5.51, I have been interested in learning more about the circumstances of surrounding its achievement and verification.
    Thanks Mapler90210, hanasu thanked this post
  9. Senior Member Credibility: 28,683


    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    3,013
    Thanks (Received)
    627
    Likes (Received)
    1503
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)
    Follows
    48
    Following
    29
    Feel like this should be added here just for historical record. This is an off-site (Donkey Kong Forum) public statement made by the person who's making the final call on whether this record is legitimate.

    [05|Sep 01:59 PM] jace hall: another day gone past... another no 5.57 as Omnigamer claimed should be easily done in 48 hours...
    [05|Sep 02:00 PM] jace hall: Its confusing to me. How could he be wrong? Should be impossible.
    [05|Sep 02:00 PM] jace hall: Or did I miss it?


    If you're looking for someone seeking "truth" I don't think the TG dispute forum is the way to go.
    Likes fakkTG liked this post
  10. VERIFIED TG Head Custodian Credibility: 1,000
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,126
    Thanks (Received)
    808
    Likes (Received)
    1337
    Blog Entries
    20
    Mentioned
    197 Post(s)
    Tagged
    53 Thread(s)
    Follows
    24077
    Following
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by ssdninja View Post
    Feel like this should be added here just for historical record. This is an off-site (Donkey Kong Forum) public statement made by the person who's making the final call on whether this record is legitimate.

    [05|Sep 01:59 PM] jace hall: another day gone past... another no 5.57 as Omnigamer claimed should be easily done in 48 hours...
    [05|Sep 02:00 PM] jace hall: Its confusing to me. How could he be wrong? Should be impossible.
    [05|Sep 02:00 PM] jace hall: Or did I miss it?

    If you're looking for someone seeking "truth" I don't think the TG dispute forum is the way to go.
    Not sure why you think this should be included in the dispute thread, but if you are going to randomly quote me, you should provide some context.

    Here is some -

    Omnigamer said in this post:
    I will, once again, assert that Dragster is a very easy game once the mechanics are understood. It operates at effectively 30 Hz, there's only one input that has a major purpose, and can be finished in less than a dozen of such inputs. With the right planning or instruction, anybody can get a sub-6 time within 20 minutes, a 5.61 within a few hours, and a 5.57 within a day or two.
    Was socially curious if I had missed it and his statement on the matter was proven completely accurate.

    Not sure why that needed to be included in the dispute thread though, but no worries.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian and Caretaker
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
    Thanks HectorTelloc thanked this post
    Likes TBE liked this post
Page 84 of 133 FirstFirst ... 34 74 82 83 84 85 86 94 ... LastLast