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Dispute: Andrew Mee - SNES / SFC - Battletoads & Double Dragon: The Ultimate Team - NTSC - Points - Player: Paul J. Tesi - Score: 1,629,250

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,863
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    and also yes, points dont really translate well for most console games. theres a reason speed running split for TG. A great many TG console points tracks have this flaw, thats just how things are here. If you want to measure progress track the level or speedrun, not points. However, the rules have already been set. I actually think leeching should be fine if you're gonna track points. But i also think i have to go along with every stupid rules. The rules previous players went be would rule this out.
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  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,863
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    oh one more point thats been brought up for maxout tracks where you cant compare scores. In this case the maxout is hard enough you can compare as most people cant get the maxout. However, think of atari, lots of games where a dozen people are tied for first. The maxout issue is a huge issue on easier games. A few of us have wanted a way to track most maxouts. that way, sure, for the particular game we're all tied, but then there'd also be a stat saying total number of maxouts and we can use that to break the tie among ourselves for gaming overall. I'm sure identifying maxouts is difficult. One good, and very easily to implement approximation though would be tied scores. Obviously ties could happen without a maxout, but for the most part it should be a good approximation. Have a stat that tracks most maxouts, at first implement it by having automation view any shared 1st place as a maxout. As time goes on, humans can tweak it with specific game/scores where the approximation is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett View Post
    It is possible this track is conceptually flawed.

    It’s a game with an ending, so the only way to go for the most points possible is to use leeching. Anti-leeching rules make it impossible to judge one score against another. How many points you should be allowed to get from the final boss for it to not be considered leeching? At this point it all becomes too subjective. What if a player was very close to the record but had to hit the final boss ‘one time too many’ to beat it?

    It might be more appropriate for a game like this, with an ending, could be done as a speedrun or a marathon, allowing leeching to gain as many points as possible.

    What does everyone think about this?
    These points are valid, but not immediately relevant to this dispute. Subjectivity has been a problem for as long as the leeching rule has been around, and it isn't helped by the fact that the leeching rule isn't very well-written. It covers things properly if you interpret it and stretch meanings, but the fact of the matter is that it's probably time for the community to come together and rewrite it, or just decide to remove it and make a special note on any existing tracks that prohibit it.

    One thing I disagree with is that we can't compare no-leeching runs. They all met the same criteria: the adjudicating body was convinced that no leeching occurred. If someone disagrees with that after the fact, we now have the dispute mechanism for people to make their case and permanently attach that information to the score in question.

    The run in question in this dispute is different, however. Everyone agreed that leeching wasn't allowed for the track. Everyone (including the player) agreed that leeching was done to achieve this score. But then the runner convinced everyone involved that the #1 score on the track could only have been done by leeching, and thus his score was comparable to the existing score. As a result, they vote to accept the run onto the track! It turned out that assumption was false, however. The new score was the only one on the track that leeched, and thus it is not comparable to any other run on the track.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapler90210 View Post
    These points are valid, but not immediately relevant to this dispute. Subjectivity has been a problem for as long as the leeching rule has been around, and it isn't helped by the fact that the leeching rule isn't very well-written. It covers things properly if you interpret it and stretch meanings, but the fact of the matter is that it's probably time for the community to come together and rewrite it, or just decide to remove it and make a special note on any existing tracks that prohibit it.
    At some point in this paragraph I meant to say that if we say this track is invalid/flawed, we're saying that LOTS of tracks are invalid/flawed....which might be true, but I don't think that means we should be taking any particular action because of it.

    The reason no-leech tracks exist for scores is the same reason bizarre speedrun categories exist: these are the ways people enjoy competing, and it has generated competition as a result
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    This was my submission, and I'm voting a hard YES.

    I was still new to TG at the time, and wasn't fully aware of terms and rules. But now that I have the knowledge, and have been around for a while, this wasn't fair to PJ. I even spoke with him directly and apologized to him about how big of a mess this caused. The last thing I wanted at the time (even to this day) is for the people to think ill of me when I made a very stupid mistake, that includes PJ's speedrunning peers. I know some of them have caught wind of this and I just don't want to be that guy.

    By all means, take this **** score down. It wasn't worth hanging around that boss for so long trying to catch the score.
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    voting yes
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    This has been a great discussion.

    I agree that maxouts are an issue for some tracks. This needs to be a separate discussion.
    @Mapler90210 ‘The reason no-leech tracks exist for scores is the same reason bizarre speedrun categories exist: these are the ways people enjoy competing, and it has generated competition as a result’ I agree 100%

    As this score appears to be the only one on the track in which leeching definitely occurred, and we have the consent of the score holder, we are accepting this dispute and removing this score.
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