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Dispute: John McAllister - Arcade - Gorf - Points [3 Ships] - Player: Todd Rogers - Score: 653,990

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,003
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    As a third party, I find it hard to treat the email from Walter with the same credibility as the rest of what you've presented. There's simply nothing there I can use to differentiate that text from something you simply wrote yourself. Not trying to call you untrustworthy, just think we should be more careful about how we present evidence. You know for sure whether that email is real. We do not.

    That said, the rest of the evidence you provided is pretty convincing even without the email. Thank you for a fairly thorough contribution.
  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 4,803
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    @TriForce


    Can you please offer some additional information/explanation as to why you believe 3-ship setting was used when this TGIS update from 05/27/83 says otherwise?


    http://www.twingalaxies.com/attachme...1&d=1504580643


    The only proof I see is the screenshot you posted from the Twin Galaxies Official Video Game & Pinball World Records published in 1998, which is approximately 15 years later. Walter's quoted text again could be legitimate, but we can't verify the source.


    There are separate sources reporting two different scores settings: 663,990 6-man. 653,990 5-man. Probably not enough evidence at this point to invalidate the score (yet), but Todd submitting a newer (better score), would make this thread moot...
    Craig Rout Gallant

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  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 4,803
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3scride View Post
    @TriForce


    Can you please offer some additional information/explanation as to why you believe 3-ship setting was used when this TGIS update from 05/27/83 says otherwise?


    http://www.twingalaxies.com/attachme...1&d=1504580643


    The only proof I see is the screenshot you posted from the Twin Galaxies Official Video Game & Pinball World Records published in 1998, which is approximately 15 years later. Walter's quoted text again could be legitimate, but we can't verify the source.


    There are separate sources reporting two different scores settings: 663,990 6-man. 653,990 5-man. Probably not enough evidence at this point to invalidate the score (yet), but Todd submitting a newer (better score), would make this thread moot...
    EDIT: Should read 653,990 3-man.
    Craig Rout Gallant

    Current verified TG WRs: 58

    My Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/CraigARG
    MAME World Records channel: http://www.youtube.com/MAMEWorldRecords
  4. VERIFIED COMMISSIONER Credibility: 8,000
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    Triforce has sent me the same evidence package by email. The only difference between what he sent me and what he posted is that he has removed email addresses in the post. I regard the statement by Walter as genuine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mapler90210 View Post
    As a third party, I find it hard to treat the email from Walter with the same credibility as the rest of what you've presented. There's simply nothing there I can use to differentiate that text from something you simply wrote yourself. Not trying to call you untrustworthy, just think we should be more careful about how we present evidence. You know for sure whether that email is real. We do not.

    That said, the rest of the evidence you provided is pretty convincing even without the email. Thank you for a fairly thorough contribution.
    Thanks David Yancey thanked this post
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  5. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,003
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    Thanks, Dave

    I'm not sure how I feel about this, however. One of the problems early in the dragster dispute was that the people analyzing the game's code were hesitant to post annotated code due to legal concerns. That information could not be presented in the dispute thread and thus could not be treated as hard evidence. This has nothing to do with whether or not I trust anybody here. I shouldn't *need* to trust anyone if the evidence is properly gathered in this thread.

    On the other hand, I agree that forwarding evidence to Dave when personal information is involved seems like the best option we have at the moment outside of disregarding that evidence entirely. He is certainly the individual I have the most faith in when it comes to these disputes, and he seems to be the public face of the decisions that get made, so it makes sense to send the sensitive information to him.

    Again, however, I'm hesitant toward the fact that I have to have faith in anyone in order to consider that email as evidence. My biggest problem with pre-TGSAP scores is that their integrity is at least partially tied to the integrity of the referees that adjudicated them, and if we don't know exactly who that was, then it's tied to the integrity of ALL referees at the time it was submitted. TGSAP scores, on the other hand, will always have their evidence package available for me to go back and look at. I don't have to trust anyone in order to look at it and make a judgement on whether it was a valid submission.

    My concern with this email is that right now I have to trust either TriForce or Dave in order to consider it valid evidence, which contributes to my belief in whether the score is valid. Do I trust Dave at this moment in time? Absolutely. Will that always be the case? I can't possibly know that. And I don't know if I want to rest the integrity of the leaderboards on that faith.

    So as I said, I don't know how I feel about this. It makes sense to send the evidence to Dave in this case, but I think it'd be ideal if that were never necessary.

    Even without the email, the rest of the evidence provided has me convinced. This score is not invalid, at least not for the reasons that have been presented in this thread so far.

    Voting no.
  6. VERIFIED COMMISSIONER Credibility: 8,000
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    For transparency, Triforce emailed me his research, I requested a skype chat, during which I informed Triforce that his research needed to be posted in order to be regarded as evidence. This was also blatant excuse on my part to meet another member, which is always very enjoyable.

    In the meantime the email stayed unread in my inbox while I conferred with Jace on whether or not I should insist on it being published before seeing it myself. Jace advised that I could read it first. It was quite right for Triforce to edit out the email addresses before posting it.

    For those who do not have a copy, I can confirm that the screenshots from the TG book are genuine.
    Thanks David Yancey, jjt_defender thanked this post
  7. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 1,003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett View Post
    For transparency, Triforce emailed me his research, I requested a skype chat, during which I informed Triforce that his research needed to be posted in order to be regarded as evidence. This was also blatant excuse on my part to meet another member, which is always very enjoyable.

    In the meantime the email stayed unread in my inbox while I conferred with Jace on whether or not I should insist on it being published before seeing it myself. Jace advised that I could read it first. It was quite right for Triforce to edit out the email addresses before posting it.

    For those who do not have a copy, I can confirm that the screenshots from the TG book are genuine.
    I am very happy to hear this. This situation is actually the exact hypothetical I've been considering when describing my concerns. I agree fully with how you've handled this.

    My only concern is still the notion of having you vouch for pieces of evidence that can't be presented in their original form. If nothing else, I guess it confirms publicly that you have chosen to consider it as evidence when making your official decision. I still think it seems wrong for me to consider it when making my own decision, however, as I cannot evaluate the evidence itself, only what people tell me the evidence is. To the greatest extent possible, I would rather not have to have faith in any individual in order to have faith in the scores that are on the leaderboard.
  8. VERIFIED Legendary Member Credibility: 2,568
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    Quote Originally Posted by redelf View Post
    @RTM wondering if you have some insight into this.


    RTM REPLY - Hi "RedElf". Just an FYI...I have no idea how this "@RTM" is supposed to work, but I neither receive "text messages" nor Twitter feeds, etc. I happen to notice this thread by chance. Best to PM me when questions come up that I can contribute to in the dispute forum.

    I am not 100% sure who entered the "Gorf" score. I know that at ACAM Todd played "Gorf" many a time during ACAM events in May/June and at one of these events he had come very close to setting to a new personal best on either his 3-ship or 6-ship score...I was there and saw remnants of that performance myself...but I never saw when/where he did his TG-verified best scores nor do I know which referee entered them into the TG database. Could have been Ron, Todd himself, or even Walter back then.

    Sorry, I wish I knew more but I no longer have access to the original TG database as an admin. Brien King MIGHT still have a copy of the database "as it was" prior to the transition to new TG management...if he is contactable at least he can check if he still has a copy of the database and shell program. He MIGHT be found at "BRIEN@ARCADERESTORATION.COM" which if I remember right was his last-known E-MAIL address.
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    We All Agree Twin Galaxy Members that the Twin Galaxy Book of Video Game World Records is Hard Evidence

    If you Want Confirmation that Walter Day did in Fact then

    A Twin Galaxy Member ot Jace Hall or Dave Hawksett Contact Walter Day Really Easy either he will Say Yes I did or No I did not That will clearly Settle this Dispute Over and Done.

    Or Better Yet I JJT Johnny Totally Sure that Walter Day Would Gladly Post a Reply to all Twin Galaxy Members on this.





    Quote Originally Posted by d3scride View Post
    @TriForce


    Can you please offer some additional information/explanation as to why you believe 3-ship setting was used when this TGIS update from 05/27/83 says otherwise?


    http://www.twingalaxies.com/attachme...1&d=1504580643


    The only proof I see is the screenshot you posted from the Twin Galaxies Official Video Game & Pinball World Records published in 1998, which is approximately 15 years later. Walter's quoted text again could be legitimate, but we can't verify the source.


    There are separate sources reporting two different scores settings: 663,990 6-man. 653,990 5-man. Probably not enough evidence at this point to invalidate the score (yet), but Todd submitting a newer (better score), would make this thread moot...
  10. VERIFIED FORUM RESTRICTED Credibility: 26,764
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    DISPUTE: JOHN MCALLISTER - ARCADE - GORF - POINTS [3 SHIPS] - PLAYER: TODD ROGERS - SCORE: 653,990

    When Walter Day Does Confirm then the Dispute is Over

    Disputed By redelf
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale Mostly bringing this up so that Some Clarification Can be Done on this Score. It was originally a 6 Ship Score and later changed to a 3 Ship Score.

    But I Have a Question to you John McAllister what are we Disputing that Todd Rogers did the Score with 3 Ships then Vote Yes

    or Are Disputing whether he did it with 6 Ships

    I am Little Confused here which is it? So I can Vote Correctly

    And Either Case Once Walter Day Confirms the Finding on Todd Rogers 3 Ship or 6 Ship this Dispute will End and Be Resolved


    Arcade Gorf Points [3 Ships]

    1 1,129,660 100.00% Keith Swanson 2011-08-03 Video [Undisputed]
    2 943,580 83.53% John McCann 2009-03-20 Video [Undisputed]
    3 653,990 57.89% Todd Rogers 1982-11-24 Referee [View Dispute]
    5 259,110 22.94% Greg Mott 2007-06-01 Referee [Undisputed]
    6 235,900 20.88% Steve Wagner 2010-06-06 Referee [Undisputed]
    7 155,970 13.81% James Redding 2001-08-12 Referee [Undisputed]
    8 154,260 13.66% Kevin Winter 1982-05-27 Referee [Undisputed]
    9 151,140 13.38% Donald Hayes 2005-05-28 Referee [Undisputed]
    10 145,200 12.85% Walter Day 1983-07-05 Referee [Undisputed]
    11 74,170 6.57% Eric Ahlers 2007-11-16 Referee [Undisputed]
    12 73,852 6.54% Adam Wood 2001-08-12 Referee [Undisputed]
    13 61,244 5.42% Zachary Hample 2001-08-12 Referee [Undisputed]
    14 50,940 4.51% Robert T Mruczek 2005-11-19 Referee [Undisputed]
    15 27,500 2.43% Mr. Kelly R. Flewin 2005-11-19 Referee [Undisputed]
    16 26,136 2.31% Lenoard Taylor 2007-07-29 Referee [Undisputed]
    17 25,400 2.25% David Nelson 2006-01-15 Referee [Undisputed]
    18 24,270 2.15% Shane Monroe 2001-05-12 Referee [Undisputed



    Arcade Gorf Points [6 Ships]
    Rank Points Percent Player Date Verified Verification Method Status
    1 1,153,710 100.00% John McCann 2011-01-27 Video [Undisputed]
    2 846,880 73.40% Keith Swanson 2013-11-17 Referee [Undisputed]
    3 487,470 42.25% Todd Rogers 2006-06-03 Referee [Undisputed]
    4 406,140 35.20% Steve Wagner 2010-12-12 Referee [Undisputed]
    5 404,600 35.07% Peter Wrench 1982-07-22 Referee [Undisputed]
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