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Dispute: John McAllister - M.A.M.E. - Domino Man - Points - Player: Clay W W Karczewski - Score: 1,183,760

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,875
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    "zero no data" was a typo i meant "zero new data"
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    Well bringing up the leeching scenario on this game will at least bring it to the attention of the staff at TG. Maybe we can get a more specific rule on what and what isn't leeching. Many games have had the rule of no leeching and then a description of what they mean by leeching on that particular game. There are many interpretations of what is leeching. I for one mostly describe it as a form of gaining points with little to no skill involved along with little threat of dying. Of course if you can leech and gain a life while doing it it almost absolutely falls under leeching. If at some point you build up lives and reach a certain level and then just start gaining points without advancing the level or game then again it's leeching. If a game has a finite ending and like lets say 1942, I'd call that point pressing and not leeching. Why isn't it leeching to me you ask. Well lets see, They've advanced to the end of the game or would if they finished the final boss. They don't gain more lives. They've demonstrated that they have the skill to finish the game. They are taking a huge risk in that if they die before finishing the final boss that they won't receive the big 10m bonus for doing so.
    Take another game Arkanoid, is dying over and over again at the final board pressing or leeching. You gain lives while doing it along with a lot of points, although you don't gain more lives than you loose. In many ways it goes outside of my thoughts on what is leeching. But in many different ways it stays inside of them. I can't describe all my thoughts on what leeching is, it's based on a lot of criteria and other factors. On Arkanoid it must be allowed for one reason of mine and that is this. You have a bunch of lives built up by the time you get there. Let's say that leeching is banned on this game for the moment. Well player A is trying to get through the level (it takes some 15-20 hits to kill it, I don't remember the exact number at the moment and you score 1k for each hit) while he's trying to kill it he dies 11 times because he claims that he just can't do that level very well. Player B comes along and does the same thing but dies 21 times while trying to finish the board, it looks like he is trying to finish the level but he just keeps dying. On this title you just can't set a limit on how many lives you can use to finish the last level. You just have to allow the players to continue to try to max out the amount of hits and then die before you finish the level. This evens the playing field for everyone, if you are the most skilled at the title you will get a lot of points on the last board. If your not so skilled you won't. But if you set a limit at you get a max of 2 lives to finish the last stage or your game is over, it makes it so that the less skilled player has a chance at getting a higher score than the more skilled player. Probably didn't come out the way I wanted but I hope you get the idea.
  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,875
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    I still think the general case needs to be discussed, but sure lets deal with this particular one too.

    I totally disagree the less skilled player will win. Look what happened here. CWK used the tactic, but did it give him first place? nope. All it did was narrow the gap, it couldnt close it. Now sure, 1st place then went and used the same tactic to widen the gap, so now both are on record doing it, but before that first was still first with or without the tactic. You still need the skill to store up that many lives in the first place before you can use them up in this fashion. Its a dead end tactic. No disrespect to current 1st and 2nd, but neither of them, with this tactic, or any other made it very far into the game. This tactic is easily beatable with playing the game "straight up". This tactic forces you to die, force you to accept a lower score than you would get if you just kept playing through, so i see it as pretty harmless. Right now this game is fairly unpopular so noone's very good at it (again not an insult, i think the reason noone's that good is because they dont care enough about this title put the time in, its not a reflection of the players skill level). So if the game is unpopular and noone really plays it, who cares? On the other hand if the game does get popular, this tactic will be abandoned by the masters as it holds them back.

    A similiar thing happens in journey on the steve perry stage. You can almost gain a life for every guy you lose if you just stay on the level as long as possible shooting everything possible. Much like this game where you can almost gain a life for every one you lose. That tactic allows people who never beat the first cycle to get a score better than someone who can beat the third cycle, so there's a lot of complaining that the person who beat the third cycle got unfailry edged out by someone who stayed on the first cycle and leached. Meanwhile, the real champs come along and beat dozens of cycle not even caring about the steve perry abuse. The same will happen here. This tactic cant be done infinitely. It cant lead to a truely high score, so its a non-issue. Leeching is only an issue when people are forced to play that way to compete. Here though, if someone wants top spot their best chance is to not use this tactic but actually learn how to make it to a higher level. Both don and clay gave themselves a short term advantage but actually restricted their real potential by using this tactic. If anything, their final score is lower because they relied on this instead of using a tactic that will get them even further.
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    I don't have time right now to go into this fully, but Snowflake says "This tactic is easily beatable with playing the game 'straight up'." The key word that is incorrect in that statement is "easily".
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    Can someone explain to me why game progression is important for score runs? This argument implies to me that I would be discouraged from submitting a 4,000,000 point score that reaches level 20 in a game if it beats a 3,500,000 point score that reached level 30 (this example is purely hypothetical and I do not have any real game in mind when presenting it).

    My current opinion is that it's just a poorly designed game that needs a more well-defined track to encourage better competition.

    The leeching rule is much too grey to be consistently enforceable, imo. The current wording would seem to have just as much of a problem with me taking a detour to collect extra bananas in Super Monkey Ball when the goal is in the other direction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapler90210 View Post
    Can someone explain to me why game progression is important for score runs? This argument implies to me that I would be discouraged from submitting a 4,000,000 point score that reaches level 20 in a game if it beats a 3,500,000 point score that reached level 30 (this example is purely hypothetical and I do not have any real game in mind when presenting it).

    My current opinion is that it's just a poorly designed game that needs a more well-defined track to encourage better competition.

    The leeching rule is much too grey to be consistently enforceable, imo. The current wording would seem to have just as much of a problem with me taking a detour to collect extra bananas in Super Monkey Ball when the goal is in the other direction.
    Before you say the leeching rule is vague, read the rule here
    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...t-Hunting-quot
    although people are disagreeing with what the rules say, i think if you read them yourselves you'll see the answer is pretty clear.

    as for philosophy, hard not to insert opinion there, so i'm not even gonna try, my response here is gonna be full of opinion. Some games make sense to chase points, most of the early games, like space invaders for example. Other games like super mario bros were more about an objective. I think most people agree that just getting a maxout on smb by repeatedly winning guys, killing youself, earn a few points on each life, rinse and repeat is pretty lame. One solution is to say "hey points are clearly stupid here, the game is about progression, so lets measure progression" -- and to that end you can track either furtherest level reached, or if everyone reaches the end,speedrunning. Instead the solution decided upon for those games was to track points anyway, but force people to not focus on points and instead focus on progression and just happen to earn points as you go. I think this is ridiculous and is probably a big part of the reason why console games are more handled by speedrunners on their site than played here. You literally have a rule where you're not supposed to focus on points, even though points is the objective and whats tracked. My opinion would be, if leeching isnt ok, if focusing on points isnt ok, then dont track it. Track level or speed run. But hey i can complain all i want how silly the rule is, it is here.

    Additionallly though, despite the leeching rule being well defined -- except in the case where leecing is allowed if its "sufficiently" difficult (whatever that means) -- there are some cases the rules very clear state arent leeching but people feel the rules are wrong and should be modified to include those cases as well. For that argument read the original thread, its been handled in detail with both sides resaying the same thing many different ways hoping one way will eventually get through to the other side.
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    Sorry @Snowflake , didn't realize you replied to me.

    Please tell me what line in those rules makes it clear that my example is not leeching? Taking a detour to collect bananas that are completely out of the way and therefore does not contribute in any way toward progressing through the game. In fact, it technically is moving AWAY from progression to collect more points.

    I am fully aware of how silly this example is, but my whole point is that this extremely basic situation is misjudged if we follow the current rules to the letter, and that's not a good thing imo.

    Also, while I understand that the text is the same, linking to an archived post from 2003 on a guest account rather than linking to http://www.twingalaxies.com/help.php makes me hesitant to believe that it's legit without doing further research.

    Anyway, other than nitpicking the rules, I more or less agree with the rest of your post. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.
  8. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapler90210 View Post
    Sorry @Snowflake, didn't realize you replied to me.

    Please tell me what line in those rules makes it clear that my example is not leeching? Taking a detour to collect bananas that are completely out of the way and therefore does not contribute in any way toward progressing through the game. In fact, it technically is moving AWAY from progression to collect more points.

    I am fully aware of how silly this example is, but my whole point is that this extremely basic situation is misjudged if we follow the current rules to the letter, and that's not a good thing imo.

    Also, while I understand that the text is the same, linking to an archived post from 2003 on a guest account rather than linking to http://www.twingalaxies.com/help.php makes me hesitant to believe that it's legit without doing further research.

    Anyway, other than nitpicking the rules, I more or less agree with the rest of your post. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.
    2.0C explicilty states that when there's a timer its not leeching
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  9. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,875
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    also a fair point about the guest post. you can also see the rules here at help page, i cant link specifically to the leeching the way TG is setup, just to the rules, but you can find the leeching rules pretty easily here and see there the same http://www.twingalaxies.com/help.php
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    I see my example was a bit flawed. I could look around for a better example if it would help, but would you agree that the presence of a timer shouldn't be the reason that you can take a detour for additional points?

    For an example that doesn't have a timer but otherwise has plenty of comparable examples, what about Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land? There are plenty of rooms you can go into to grab extra items or kill extra enemies for points, but then in order to progress you have to leave the room from the same door you came in and end up in the same place you entered from. Therefore, entering that room was purely for points and not at all for progression. Furthermore, the game does NOT have a timer. The enemies do not respawn unless you die and do not give you enough points for an extra life, so clearly it's not leeching, but the rules seem to imply that it would be.
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