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Dispute: Marc Cohen - Atari 2600 / VCS - Wabbit - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B - Player: Todd Rogers - Score: 1,698

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 14,123
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    I'm perfectly comfortable with rounding his score down to the next 5-point mark and being done with it. This is one score where the do-ability of it is not in question...to me, anyway...it's just a simple clerical error.
    So your saying, correct an obvious typo, with another hypothetical possible/probable score with a 5 or a 0 ?
    Thats like ones wife/girlfriend claiming to be "almost pregnant".

    Score is impossible = Remove score!

    I have yet to see a "simple score correction" adjustment under the dispute system (non-TGSAP verified) without proof of said score. Did I possibly miss one?
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  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,878
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    roudning to the nearest real score is a terrible idea. Look, if this was a machine measuring weight or height, and it was off by something, sure we'd know to round to the closest possible value. But a mistype? what makes you think the mistype would only be off by the smallest possible value? The moment you say some human entered it wrong, why not assume the last digit is completely incorrect and the score was actually 169? Why not assume multiple digits are incorrect? why not assume the score was a billion? to just guess a score when we know the score is wrong is ridiculous. Was that the established practice in the old days? Just guess people's scores? My goodness!!!! no wonder the database is in such a mess. I cant believe I have to explain the issue with correcting scores by just guessing.

    step right up ladies and gentleman. the new way to fix scores. take this dart, throw at a ring of possible score, where the dart lands is the score that would be entered. a fun family event for all ages!
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  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 3,497


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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    roudning to the nearest real score is a terrible idea. Look, if this was a machine measuring weight or height, and it was off by something, sure we'd know to round to the closest possible value. But a mistype? what makes you think the mistype would only be off by the smallest possible value? The moment you say some human entered it wrong, why not assume the last digit is completely incorrect and the score was actually 169? Why not assume multiple digits are incorrect? why not assume the score was a billion? to just guess a score when we know the score is wrong is ridiculous. Was that the established practice in the old days? Just guess people's scores? My goodness!!!! no wonder the database is in such a mess. I cant believe I have to explain the issue with correcting scores by just guessing.

    step right up ladies and gentleman. the new way to fix scores. take this dart, throw at a ring of possible score, where the dart lands is the score that would be entered. a fun family event for all ages!
    Or just like Leo he can come here and just say "no my score really was xxxx". Sorry Robert i truly value your input but what bearing does "Todds skill is just fantastic" matter when the score is obviously wrong. I agree with William why not 160 vs 16xx? I mean if its wrong the fix is not just make it a valid score. The fix IMO should be that unless some type of EVIDENCE is produced the score was entered in error its removed. Why dont Todd just submit some of these scores via the TGSAP here? Its unfathomable to me that he has NO videos or computer files of these scores that people have concerns with since he was so adamant that he had to go through the exact same process to get a score on TG right? John McAllister is doing this very same thing now and I think its awesome that he is.
    Dan Desjardins
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    Is this the way I left the equalizer??? Noooooo this system is not some toy for you and ur friends can t use it properly ur not to use it at all
  5. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 14,123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post

    step right up ladies and gentleman. the new way to fix scores. take this dart, throw at a ring of possible score, where the dart lands is the score that would be entered. a fun family event for all ages!
    Guessing numbers is gambling, and should be banned in all casinos!!!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR9h3d_4NGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234 View Post
    Or just like Leo he can come here and just say "no my score really was xxxx". Sorry Robert i truly value your input but what bearing does "Todds skill is just fantastic" matter when the score is obviously wrong. I agree with William why not 160 vs 16xx? I mean if its wrong the fix is not just make it a valid score. The fix IMO should be that unless some type of EVIDENCE is produced the score was entered in error its removed. Why dont Todd just submit some of these scores via the TGSAP here? Its unfathomable to me that he has NO videos or computer files of these scores that people have concerns with since he was so adamant that he had to go through the exact same process to get a score on TG right?


    RTM REPLY - never said my suggestion was right...in fact it goes against a lot that I believe in...but if we collectively are going to pick nits over keypunch typos that occurred 15+ years ago and engage in removal rather than correction for the obvious ones, that's a sorry state of affairs and a lot of good scores will be lost.

    Step back a minute and think about what you are asking or rather expecting...video proof from 15+ years prior. How many gamers actually saved a "backup copy" on VHS tape (forget digital) ? I sure as heck did not...I sent in scores to TG in good faith that TG would not only not lose the backup but also do their job right in terms of score entry. Clearly that was not a well-founded position as *****-ups occurred with alarming propensity.

    I'm sure I lost a lot of scores myself in the process now subject to review due to similar typos. I'd hate to see a hard-fought WR of mine in jeopardy because some moron 15+ years ago entered a 2 or 8 instead of a 5 as the trailing digit, especially on console systems I no longer even own or which are a pain in the a__ to hook up to modern TV sets like from the ColecoVision...thankfully my old O2 scores are fine as every title I played allowed scores of all trailing digits.
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  7. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 3,497


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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - never said my suggestion was right...in fact it goes against a lot that I believe in...but if we collectively are going to pick nits over keypunch typos that occurred 15+ years ago and engage in removal rather than correction for the obvious ones, that's a sorry state of affairs and a lot of good scores will be lost.

    Step back a minute and think about what you are asking or rather expecting...video proof from 15+ years prior. How many gamers actually saved a "backup copy" on VHS tape (forget digital) ? I sure as heck did not...I sent in scores to TG in good faith that TG would not only not lose the backup but also do their job right in terms of score entry. Clearly that was not a well-founded position as *****-ups occurred with alarming propensity.

    I'm sure I lost a lot of scores myself in the process now subject to review due to similar typos. I'd hate to see a hard-fought WR of mine in jeopardy because some moron 15+ years ago entered a 2 or 8 instead of a 5 as the trailing digit, especially on console systems I no longer even own or which are a pain in the a__ to hook up to modern TV sets like from the ColecoVision...thankfully my old O2 scores are fine as every title I played allowed scores of all trailing digits.
    My question about that is why in the world would you not say something if your score was entered incorrectly? I feel the onus is on the submitter to ensure that is correct not just shrug it off and say "ah its close enough". Part of the PROOF im talking about could be those communications you sent to TG back in the day saying just that. If all of a sudden one of your scores comes back as simply impossible to get we can't just assume it was a typo even though i do feel you would most certainly come clean with the details on what happened. If 15 years later someone questions a score of mine because frankly its impossible to get then hopefully the TGSAP data will be there for all to view instead of trying to do this forensic stuff now. If its not for some reason and I dont have a copy of it any longer then the answer should not be "Oh the ref must have made a mistake my score was really 1690 but I dont have any proof at all now sorry".

    Given all the stuff that we KNOW happened back then yes scores that are completely impossible need to be removed not somehow "fudged" to make them fit. That's just my opinion on how life in the big city should be.

    FYI here is a video on what happens to Wabbit when the score rolls over 1000 apparently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8S1kKNkIHU - I must say that is pretty amazing to me if someone managed to get another 698 points. If anything why isn't the 1 also a typo?
    Dan Desjardins
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  8. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,878
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - never said my suggestion was right...in fact it goes against a lot that I believe in...but if we collectively are going to pick nits over keypunch typos that occurred 15+ years ago and engage in removal rather than correction for the obvious ones, that's a sorry state of affairs and a lot of good scores will be lost.
    "never said my suggestion was right" -- wow! so you're suggesting things you know to be wrong! Here's a crazy new idea that just might work, lets suggest things we believe to be right. Lets actually try to do whats right. I know I know revolutionary, such a thing is a whole new way of thinking, but lets give it a chance.

    nitpicking really? clearly fake scores is nit picking? so declaring todd's donkey kong score impossible and removing it just because it beat you is fine, putting yourself in 1st place by DQing real scores that you THOUGHT were impossible simply because you couldn't do them is fine, but provably false scores is nit picking? Well I guess at least thank you for your honestly, if you consider finding false scores to be "nit picking" where know where you stand on the side of database integrity.

    "removal rather than correction for the obvious ones... good scores will be lost" -- wrong wrong wrong. Of course in the case where it can be corrected it should. If there's any way to find the real score i'm in favor of correcting. See the robotron dispute for example. However you're not suggesting correcting you're suggesting guesing. At that point all you're doing is hiding the evidence of potential wrong doing. In the case of the cheater you've helped them hide their tracks, in the case of the innocent typo you've again hidden the mistake and now made it less likely anyone will think to find the real score. The good scores are already lost and you're talking about protecting bad ones. If a good score is lost because a typo was entered, then its lost, replacing it with another bad score doesnt bring it back

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    Step back a minute and think about what you are asking or rather expecting...video proof from 15+ years prior. How many gamers actually saved a "backup copy" on VHS tape (forget digital) ? I sure as heck did not...I sent in scores to TG in good faith that TG would not only not lose the backup but also do their job right in terms of score entry. Clearly that was not a well-founded position as *****-ups occurred with alarming propensity.
    Think of what you are asking, purposely falsifying the database with fake scores just to hide other fake scores. you're literally talking about tampering with evidence to cover things up rather than fix them

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    I'm sure I lost a lot of scores myself in the process now subject to review due to similar typos. I'd hate to see a hard-fought WR of mine in jeopardy because some moron 15+ years ago entered a 2 or 8 instead of a 5 as the trailing digit, especially on console systems I no longer even own or which are a pain in the a__ to hook up to modern TV sets like from the ColecoVision...thankfully my old O2 scores are fine as every title I played allowed scores of all trailing digits.
    I think we'd all hate to see real scores go, maybe you're to close to the issue and biased though if you're main focus is yourself. You have to look for the greater good. Is the fact you might lose scores too the only real issue you have? A system isnt bad simply because it might harm you, though I can understand as a human how thats the first thing we think of. Ask yourself how you would feel if there were still refs, you were still chief, you scores were safe, and you saw these issues with anyone else. If you found an impossible score and some other player said "please dont remove his score cause i might be next and i'd hate to see my real scores go" how moved would you be?

    now, i will say this as leo daniel's dispute shows. I dont believe for one second every single person on that track cheated. I'm convinced the database has errors that are no fault of the players. I think its awful real players with real scores had their scores lost. but heres the thing, if a fake score is in there, the good score is already lost. Lets try to fix things, not cover them up
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    In the data entry world, algorithms have been used to correct number transposition errors. The frequency of 8 being hit instead of 5 actually goes up towards the end of the day as the operator / data entry clerk begins to fatigue. This is a fairly common transposition.

    In this case since we don't know what actually happened. We can however make recommendations to the Commissioner. Is this an invalid score? Yes.

    Do we collectively decide the fate of the score? No we do not. We can individually make our own recommendations, which will be weighed along with any evidence presented.
    "May the Heavy Hand spare you" -- Datagod 1:19
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    wait wait i got another one

    police: do you have an alibi
    me: I sure do, i was at the arcade during those hours
    police: we checked with arcade owner, and his cameras, you werent there
    me: oh well then just replace the alibi i gave you with one you'd believe.
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