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Dispute: Marc Cohen - Atari 2600 / VCS - Wabbit - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B - Player: Todd Rogers - Score: 1,698

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Is this a valid dispute?

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    On a side not Snowflake if the DK score that you mentioned was the 15 million 50 score it actually is impossible to get but thats another discussion. (Nothing it the game is worth 50 points).

    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234 View Post
    On a side not Snowflake if the DK score that you mentioned was the 15 million 50 score it actually is impossible to get but thats another discussion. (Nothing it the game is worth 50 points).

    Dan
    if the issue was just impossible points dont you know the plan is to just round it ;)
    i'm talking about the alleged kill screen in the atari version that doesnt actually exist. its really hard, but not a kill screen.
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    Hoi RTM, due respect for your knowledge but we cannot unlimited allow "sorry a typo" correct score
    for each of Todd's scores. It seems there are too many typos which are supiscous. So any other
    gamer that do have the same amount of typos ? yes of course a few I can think of that are not part of TG
    or CAG forums with obvious reasons, but let us keep the respect I will not mention their names here.


    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    I actually remember when this score was entered, just not by whom.

    The strategy itself is pretty simple, a derivative of titles such as "Plaque Attack" and "Cheeky Mouse".

    Todd, and another gamer I know from the Funspot area, Michael Sao Pedro, are awesome at this skillset, so I have no doubt that he can score this high. Its a matter of the score being a typo, only no way to know which way it goes +/- to the nearest 5 points.

    I'm perfectly comfortable with rounding his score down to the next 5-point mark and being done with it. This is one score where the do-ability of it is not in question...to me, anyway...it's just a simple clerical error. We have far more important matters to deal with here...a simple score correction is all that is needed.
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    "Danman1234" said -"My question about that is why in the world would you not say something if your score was entered incorrectly? I feel the onus is on the submitter to ensure that is correct"


    RTM REPLY - you are correct in that onus of responsibility is on the gamer. However in terms of yesteryear, pre-TGSAP, there were massive delays in score entry and on top of that errors. Some of us, myself included as by that time we could no longer enter our own scores, just gave up waiting and never bothered to check, right or wrong, if our scores were ever entered. As such, speaking for myself, I discovered a long while afterwards that some of my "Indiana Jones" scores were screwed up and others flat-out missing. At the time TG had deleted my user account and I could no longer report scores on the forum so I made a personal decision...the heck with it. Not the way to go for sake of accuracy, clearly, but I hadn't the time to pursue such matters, and now, years after that, I no longer remember which are right and which are wrong...all I remember for sure is that I had six submissions for arcade and six for MAME, and now only some of them are reflected in the TG database, right or wrong.




    "Snowflake" said - "nitpicking really? clearly fake scores is nit picking? so declaring todd's donkey kong score impossible and removing it just because it beat you is fine, putting yourself in 1st place by DQing real scores that you THOUGHT were impossible simply because you couldn't do them is fine, but provably false scores is nit picking? Well I guess at least thank you for your honestly, if you consider finding false scores to be "nit picking" where know where you stand on the side of database integrity"


    RTM REPLY - not sure why you are bringing up the since-resolved DK issue which Todd himself addressed in his only forum post in years, but that is apples and oranges...and you have your facts wrong. Wasn't a matter of my "not being able to do" something...my cartridge never allowed for it. Todd and I discussed and came to a senior referee agreement 12+ years ago.

    I consider the choice of score removal due to a TG staffer's carelessness in keying in an incorrect trailing digit nit-picking indeed relative to all the other problems facing us right now. You took what I said out of context, clearly, and further are using that incorrect assessment to question my stance on database integrity. Now we know where you stand with respect to me.




    "Snowflake" said - "I think we'd all hate to see real scores go, maybe you're to close to the issue and biased though if you're main focus is yourself."


    RTM REPLY - My "main focus" is on the gamer, and I see myself as a gamer. Any gamer with 15-20 year old scores in the database that is in jeopardy of losing a vintage score due to a keypunch error from almost 2 decades ago is troubling news.

    My "bias" here is that referees, some of which I worked with, were careless and it is disheartening to see a gamer's best effort get removed because of sloppy data entry. That's not "bias"...that's more ownership of responsibility for anything that happened under my watch. I trained many of those referees, but there was never any mechanism in place for a second set of eyes for approval purposes. Training someone to use the system was the hard part...I want to believe that care was exercised in the score entry phase as that is the simplest part. Clearly carelessness was limited to unique occurrences and for that I'm personally sorry as some of these likely fell under my watch over the referees. So if you want to call that "bias", that's the way you see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    Hoi RTM, due respect for your knowledge but we cannot unlimited allow "sorry a typo" correct score
    for each of Todd's scores. It seems there are too many typos which are supiscous. So any other
    gamer that do have the same amount of typos ? yes of course a few I can think of that are not part of TG
    or CAG forums with obvious reasons, but let us keep the respect I will not mention their names here.


    RTM REPLY - I do see your point here, Francois...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, as the expression goes. However in TGSAP it is more appropriately "fool us twice, shame on us".

    Now that you mention it, even though there was never any formal tracking of which gamers had score typos either attributed to their scores or attributed to their data entry accuracy if they were admin staff, I do not recall ever discussing this possibility at any time either with my fellow referees or on the public forum.

    If, over time, a clear-cut case of such a scenario exists, then as you suggest the scores become suspect, regardless of the submitting gamer or the associated referee or data entry person.

    In the case of "Wabbit" I was looking at the skillset more so than the score and what I saw here was that the score seemed entirely do-able, so when I commented I weighed this one issue in light of all the others at present and to me it seemed relatively small on the priority scale, thus my comments made. Again, never said my comments were right...they were more the fast track path towards moving on to the next issue at hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - not sure why you are bringing up the since-resolved DK issue which Todd himself addressed in his only forum post in years, but that is apples and oranges...and you have your facts wrong. Wasn't a matter of my "not being able to do" something...my cartridge never allowed for it. Todd and I discussed and came to a senior referee agreement 12+ years ago.
    lol you're still claiming its impossible. I tell you what, upload the rom on your mystery cartridge as you apparently have the only one where its impossible. Lets make an event out of it. Sorry bro you're just proving my point and your unwillingness to learn. It IS possible on your cart but you think its impossible just because you cant do it. I hope everyone is reading that to this day you insist there's a kill screen just cause you're not good enough to pass it. Those are the sorts of standards you set, while you call "nit picking" when people want to remove truly impossible scores. I dont care if Todd backed down and let you bully him into it, all that shows is he wasnt willing to fight you. You were wrong then and you're wrong now. The arrogance of when being faced with proof the kill screen is wrong to just counter that its not possible on your cart is astounding.

    in summary
    you prove right here an uneditable thread that you removed scores just because you werent good enough to get them
    you show you refusal to learn by still insisting the kill screen is real
    you consider looking for truth and accuracy to be nitpicking and instead advocating falsifying scores to cover up evidecne
    each reply you give just digs the whole deeper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - My "main focus" is on the gamer, and I see myself as a gamer. Any gamer with 15-20 year old scores in the database that is in jeopardy of losing a vintage score due to a keypunch error from almost 2 decades ago is troubling news.
    Sorry to wade in here like an over-fed feline, but I simply must respond to this.

    You are saying that gamers have had 15-20 years in which to ask their scores be corrected, but were satisfied to simply let them exist in the database incorrectly? If they truly cared about those records, why would they be happy with an impossible score?

    Is the record itself important, or the amount of records that is important?

    I say the integrity of the score board is paramount.
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    Psst... Its a typo, Bugs...Please remove yourself from that hole you dug, that you just cant dig any deeper then you already have!

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    Sorry for using quotes like this, but the cursor just keeps spinning when I try to reply with a quote...

    "Snowflake" said - "lol you're still claiming its impossible. I tell you what, upload the rom on your mystery cartridge as you apparently have the only one where its impossible. Lets make an event out of it. Sorry bro you're just proving my point and your unwillingness to learn. It IS possible on your cart but you think its impossible just because you cant do it. I hope everyone is reading that to this day you insist there's a kill screen just cause you're not good enough to pass it. Those are the sorts of standards you set, while you call "nit picking" when people want to remove truly impossible scores. I dont care if Todd backed down and let you bully him into it, all that shows is he wasnt willing to fight you. You were wrong then and you're wrong now. The arrogance of when being faced with proof the kill screen is wrong to just counter that its not possible on your cart is astounding.

    in summary
    you prove right here an uneditable thread that you removed scores just because you werent good enough to get them
    you show you refusal to learn by still insisting the kill screen is real
    you consider looking for truth and accuracy to be nitpicking and instead advocating falsifying scores to cover up evidecne
    each reply you give just digs the whole deeper."



    RTM REPLY - OK, you are very much reading what I said incorrectly. Let me clarify as there are no "between the lines" with what I am saying.

    1st - I am N O T claiming that it is impossible to do what Todd did. Where did I say that ? What I said repeatedly when discussing the origin of this matter was that I was playing on a cart that did not allow for this, and at the time the previous WR was only 449K, so I discussed with Todd that it would not be right to have the two scores co-mingled in the same category and at the time he agreed. It never closed the possibility of having a second category opened.

    As for the "mystery cart" itself, it was sold to Tom Duncan along with about 100+ other 2600 carts many years back when I stopped submitting for the 2600. All stated on the forum/

    2nd - as for uploading the ROM onto my "mystery cart", I no longer even own a 2600...I gave that as a gift to the Metroid Team. I'm no longer a console player/submitter...I have no need to "make an event" out of this...it's old hat. Todd wrote what he wrote on it within the TG forum several weeks back, David Yancey even responded, and it's a done deal.

    3rd - I'm still not sure why you are bringing this DK-issue into the mix

    4th - never said there was a "kill screen" either. If you read what I've wrote many a time, those finicky fireballs got onto a rivet and say there wavering back and forth. No joystick/button manipulation on my part had any effect on them at all. Doesn't make it a "kill screen" as in end of game...if you got past it on your next life, assuming you had one, you continued on.

    5th - how is any of the above "setting a standard" ? This was a unique, senior referee only decision that was made...period. There never has been another such decision made if you check all subsequent forum posts either. Why are you interjecting these wanton speculations and accusations into the discussion ?

    6th - where did you get that our mutual decision was a combination of "bullying Todd" and "fighting" ? NOT ONCE were those words used on the forum OR in what Todd himself posted. Again, where are you getting these wanton and baseless speculations from ? Or do you have an agenda that you are trying to promote here ?

    7th - where is there "arrogance" here ? Todd and I reached a mutual decision 12+ years ago...it's a done deal. And further, this discussion is about an entirely different title anyway.

    8th - no, your own words accused me of removing a score speculating further I was unable to get the score. In my own words...and Todd's...the score was removed by mutual referee discussion based on our decision not to co-mingle the earlier scores with his for the reasons that the two of us agreed upon. You are not twisting words here...you are writing only your interpretation of what was stated.

    9th - again, where do I say here...word for word...that the "kill screen is real" ? You have got to STOP reading between the lines with what is written.

    10th - I said that it was nit picking compared to the more important matters out there...and there are quite a few. I subsequently posted that even stating what I did went against some of what I believe in as a former referee and current gamer, but you choose to harp and focus on what you do.

    11th - there's no "hole" getting dug deeper here other than the one you are envisioning.

    No point in replying to "Snowflake" as he reads ABC and interprets that as DEF.
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