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Dispute: william rosa - Arcade - Dragon's Lair - Points [5 Lives] - Player: Judd Boone - Score: 558,724

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 02-12-2018, 12:14 AM
    #11
    Much has been made of this record, but unfortunately, the score is technically valid based on TG's rules.

    Problem #1: Dragon's Lair can be configured to restart at the first scene after completing the lair scene. The score does not reset, the player simply continues from the beginning with however many lives remain.

    Problem #2: The rules of TG's Hard/5-man track are almost empty of guidance. No rules or dipswitch settings are specified, other than "5-man."
    (ie: https://i.imgur.com/PeHkAC1.png)

    So, if this player were on a machine set to restart after the lair, he may have simply gone through the first loop and continued some distance into the second before losing his fifth life and ending the run. And if he were to have done so, he would not be in violation of the rules established for the track. It's possible that this is exactly what happened. For all we know, allowing for marathon runs may have even been intended when the track was established.

    So, the problem seems to be less the record itself, and more the the (lack of) rules.
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  2. 02-13-2018, 08:04 AM
    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispy View Post
    Much has been made of this record, but unfortunately, the score is technically valid based on TG's rules.

    Problem #1: Dragon's Lair can be configured to restart at the first scene after completing the lair scene. The score does not reset, the player simply continues from the beginning with however many lives remain.

    Problem #2: The rules of TG's Hard/5-man track are almost empty of guidance. No rules or dipswitch settings are specified, other than "5-man."
    (ie: https://i.imgur.com/PeHkAC1.png)

    So, if this player were on a machine set to restart after the lair, he may have simply gone through the first loop and continued some distance into the second before losing his fifth life and ending the run. And if he were to have done so, he would not be in violation of the rules established for the track. It's possible that this is exactly what happened. For all we know, allowing for marathon runs may have even been intended when the track was established.

    So, the problem seems to be less the record itself, and more the the (lack of) rules.
    is it a dip switch setting, a cheat, a soft setting? Can you elaborate on how to set DL to be able to do that?
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  3. 02-13-2018, 08:18 AM
    #13
    here's a scan of the manual. maybe i missed something. can anyone point me to how its possible to configure the game to loop?
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  4. 02-13-2018, 08:19 AM
    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispy View Post
    Much has been made of this record, but unfortunately, the score is technically valid based on TG's rules.

    Problem #1: Dragon's Lair can be configured to restart at the first scene after completing the lair scene. The score does not reset, the player simply continues from the beginning with however many lives remain.

    Problem #2: The rules of TG's Hard/5-man track are almost empty of guidance. No rules or dipswitch settings are specified, other than "5-man."
    (ie: https://i.imgur.com/PeHkAC1.png)

    So, if this player were on a machine set to restart after the lair, he may have simply gone through the first loop and continued some distance into the second before losing his fifth life and ending the run. And if he were to have done so, he would not be in violation of the rules established for the track. It's possible that this is exactly what happened. For all we know, allowing for marathon runs may have even been intended when the track was established.

    So, the problem seems to be less the record itself, and more the the (lack of) rules.
    I'll admit I don't know a ton of the technical details of Dragon's Lair but reading the dip switches the only way to "Start over" was to deposit more money is it not? There is no way that can be considered "ok" here. Also if people could just play on an on wouldnt these scores be WAYYYYYYYY higher?
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  5. 02-13-2018, 09:08 AM
    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234 View Post
    I'll admit I don't know a ton of the technical details of Dragon's Lair but reading the dip switches the only way to "Start over" was to deposit more money is it not? There is no way that can be considered "ok" here. Also if people could just play on an on wouldnt these scores be WAYYYYYYYY higher?
    ok cool, danman showed me another set of dips where its possible. however, the setting that allows the game to loop requires you to spend more money to do so. also, the same thing that allows you to loop also requires you to spend more money at earlire points in the game as well just to keep playing and will even award additiona lives if you're below 3, although thats probably more of a moot point as anyone who can beat the game probably had at least 3 lives at all those points.

    I think the real question is, does spending money to continue a game count as using a "continue". This is a little bit different than usual since the "continue" didnt occur due to running out of lives, but rather occured due to the game being completed. Even still, money was paid to continue playing. I thought "no continues" was a global rule for a long time, even at the time of this submission.

    As a side note, allowing continues could be fun, and since the continue after the end of the game, leaves you with the same amount of dirks its not like someone can just pay for an infinite score with no skill. This could be a fun track, but it should really be a seperate track. I suggest moving the score to a new "continues allowed" track.
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  6. 02-15-2018, 07:51 PM
    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    is it a dip switch setting, a cheat, a soft setting? Can you elaborate on how to set DL to be able to do that?
    I agree. How is this performed/set? There are ways to make players pay more but I've never seen a way to keep looping from a DIP switch.

    //www.dragons-lair-project.com/tech/dips/dl.asp
  7. 02-15-2018, 08:14 PM
    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by InsertCoins View Post
    I agree. How is this performed/set? There are ways to make players pay more but I've never seen a way to keep looping from a DIP switch.

    //www.dragons-lair-project.com/tech/dips/dl.asp
    look at the "pay as you go" play options. the most expensive ones also includes the continue ability
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  8. 02-16-2018, 07:03 PM
    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    look at the "pay as you go" play options. the most expensive ones also includes the continue ability
    I follow now. Man, I'm mixed on this. I mean, I remember watching a lot of Dragon's Lair back in the day. I don't remember seeing any machines in my area ever set to play as you go. Maybe others have seen some setup that way?

    I do agree the rules are vague. I'm just thinking how cheesy a new track would be. It's like ok got my stack of quarters ready to go for continues. Keep feeding the machine... keep feeding the machine... keep feeding the machine.
  9. Yesterday, 09:34 AM
    #19
    I've been thinking about this one alot, a few interesting points.

    First, I am NOT an expert, I have beaten the game but not an expert. Lots of experts though have been sure for a long time this is impossible and they all missed this option. In fact, this score was so well known as an issue that way back when Jace was still doing "State of the Galaxies" and talking about a future challenge system "Dragon's Lair" is the one he brought up. Thats right, at one point this score was a bigger issue in peoples mind's than dragster. So strange that THE score that was considered the biggest issue has an explanation unnoticed by so many, I guess a good chance to get philosiphical and humble and notice how people can miss things. So thank you for pointing us to the answer.

    Now, as for what to do about this. I go back and forth because of this
    1. Yes, the rules dont technically rule it out
    2. There is a global rule against continues (did that rule exist back then though, see 3 for elaboration)
    3. The rule was made to prevent people from just paying for a score. With later games you could continue all you wanted and scores were no longer a function of skill. Some people have made comments in this thread making me think they dont understand the continue option here. The continue in this case is NOT a traditional continue. If you run out of lives, too bad, you're done. The continue is more of a money trap, even if the player is playing perfectly and lost no lives, at certain points the game ends regardless unless the player pays to keep playing. At those points, if the player is under the 3 lives, one life is awarded (so yes you do get to buy a life, though a good player wouldnt do that, as sacrifcing 2 lives in a lower scorin area is worth the one extra guy you'll have to get point on the fina stage). Also, the real key here, is if you finish the game, rather than ending you get to loop it, so again not "continuing" in the traditional sense since you did have lives yet. This all makes me think that this wanst the type of continues the global rule had in mind.
    4. taking the above all into account, the fact of the matter is, the score is in the database, if we take an "innocent until proven guilty" approach, we have to assume TG was ok with DL continues. Remember again, infinite continues ARE NOT possible. You could only continue at 3 points, and even at those points only if you still had lives left. I can believe that may have been allowed. This just means the higher scorers had to pay 3x the amount of normal players. Its not like it took a million dollars, 3x the normal payment has to be affordable. I mean who guys to the arcade and can only afford one play through of agame? It stands to reason anyone who played could probably afford 3 continues.

    possible solution of a new track issues:
    we cant really just move this score, since we dont know how many other people used the same option. Also, consider those of us lik me, who we know for a fact didnt use this option, i might not want my score moved to a new track (actually i would want my score moved, but i'm using myself as an example) since this track allows any setting and its been around the longest and has the most players on it, i might find it more prestigious to have a low ranking on this track than a high ranking on a new track. I think players should only be moved to a "no continues" track if they can both prove they didnt play on this setting and they explciitly ask for it.

    personal note:
    i no longer have access to a DL but i'm gonna try to get access, and trust me, when i do, this score is going down.
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  10. Yesterday, 11:25 AM
    #20
    Ah, yes. 1983...Back in the good ol' days, where a simple "bi-polaroid" to TG was sufficient enough to put any score on the scoreboard. (with your own personal rule sets, such as continues)

    Must of been nice!
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