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Dispute: Simon Leitch - PlayStation 2 - Need for Speed Underground - NTSC - Circuit Mode - Inner City [Fastest Lap] - Player: ruven zambrano - Score: 47.08

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 6,848
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    For the record, this is one of those cases where I disagree with @Jace Hall so dont shoot the messenger but this argument has been had before, also tagging jace since i'll no doubt not get his exact wording correct and I want him to have a fair chance to speak up if i misrepresent him.

    The idea is -- if i interpreted jace correctly -- is he hates hard rules. He wants us to have flexibility for corner cases. In theory I agree. That flexibilty he gives us is ridiculously gigantic though. In my opinion at some point too much freedom is a bad thing, I dont need the freedom to swallow poison for example there are some things i'll never ever ever want to do and providing that option is just a way of inviting danger, and i'd prefer guard rails even if that means giving up the freedom to drive my car into the river.

    So, the idea is we have the freedom to regard anything as evidence -- even just someone's say so, but that freeodm still comes with the penalty that if we get it wrong we're dinged. So yes, we have the freedom to accept third party hosting and just trust the person will never remove it, but if we voted yes thinking the person would never delete the video then we voted wrong. Whether the video comes down mid submission or after acceptance it still means we incorrectly trusted someone to keep their evidence public.

    This is why I never vote on third party uploads unless there's no other option (such as marathon runs), and even in those extreme cases I still can be picky on whom I decide to trust.
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  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 14,485


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    It was only a matter of time before something like this popped up and as someone who will never for any reason or any person ever vote Yes on submissions that only have a YouTube video, I'm not feeling bad for anyone who takes a CR hit. I don't agree with the hit being 5% but if there isn't a CR hit then there is no motivation to skip these submissions. I feel very strongly that TGSAP is only better than the ref system if the documentation is permanent and YouTube videos are not permanent. TG disclosed a long time ago that when these videos disappear for any reason, Yes voters will be taking a CR hit. This should not be a surprise. I realize there are a bazillion excuses as to why using TG's system doesn't work but I don't think using YouTube is the right solution. Hopefully enough people will either take the CR hit or see this and stop voting for submissions that only have YouTube video. When this happens TG and the submitters will be forced to come up with a different solution. Hopefully one that results in the documentation for the score to be permanent.
    "Cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do you no good"

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  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 12,218
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    Dick, I can't help but have a laugh at your post after reading your signature. ;)
    The Fisher King
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  4. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 13,594
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper View Post
    It was only a matter of time before something like this popped up and as someone who will never for any reason or any person ever vote Yes on submissions that only have a YouTube video, I'm not feeling bad for anyone who takes a CR hit. I don't agree with the hit being 5% but if there isn't a CR hit then there is no motivation to skip these submissions. I feel very strongly that TGSAP is only better than the ref system if the documentation is permanent and YouTube videos are not permanent. TG disclosed a long time ago that when these videos disappear for any reason, Yes voters will be taking a CR hit. This should not be a surprise. I realize there are a bazillion excuses as to why using TG's system doesn't work but I don't think using YouTube is the right solution. Hopefully enough people will either take the CR hit or see this and stop voting for submissions that only have YouTube video. When this happens TG and the submitter will be forced to come up with a different solution. Hopefully one that results in the documentation for the score to be permanent.
    Not looking for any sympathy and if this situation leads to submission "guard rails" than all the better. My biggest problem for situations like this, including use of the cancel feature, is that the rewards, punishment, and abilities are not equal between the adjudicator and submitter. I've stated something similar in other posts. I'll try to brief in describing where responsibilities should drive rewards and punishment in the adjudication process.

    Submitter - Provides evidence in good faith, the the video game performance is theirs and authentic. They should never be allowed to vote NO on their submission as no one should ever send a submission package in good faith with the intent and voting against their on package. That makes no logical sense. The submitter also implies certain guarantees to abide by Twin Galaxies rules, including responsibility to maintain and make available video evidence during and after the adjudication process is complete. After all, the new Twin Galaxies is about transparency. If the submitter violates these implied guarantees, they should be penalized accordingly.

    Twin Galaxies has made a decision to allow uploads to third party verification. That is their risk to bear since they are the custodians, guardians, and keepers of the scoreboard. Its up to them to decide if these methods will cause integrity issues to the scoreboard and what measure to prevent / detect it to many that risk. That is their responsibility.

    The Adjudicators review the evidence package, ask questions, and vote (or abstain) as they see fit. If adjudicators are careless in executing their services (e.g. blind voting), then they will be penalized for being on the wrong side of the vote. It pretty simple, determine if the performance is acceptable and if your in the minority, your voting weight decreases.

    Now saying an adjudicator is at fault for adjudicating a submission that is in the queue is really similar to victim shaming. Its kind of like "I have no sympathy for pedestrian that was hit by the drunk driver, they should have know that the bar down the street closes at 2am". So is the pedestrian at fault for the drivers negligence, or is the driver at fault for their careless actions that caused harm to the pedestrian. My vote is the driver is at fault.

    The submitter broke their implied promise / guarantee of submitting evidence package in good faith and keeping the evidence available. Twin Galaxies allows third party uploads in the adjudication process the design and manage. The adjudicators voted yes or no, and both responses were correct depending on when they reviewed the submission package. They adjudicators are really bystanders to the submitter's actions. Twin Galaxies is complicit in letting this happen, passing the blame onto adjudicators for performing their responsibilities that trusted other members to honor their guarantees, using a method allowed by Twin Galaxies.

    So its up to Twin Galaxies to dole out appropriate punishment to the individual(s) responsible this mess. After all, who credibility and reputation was harmed in this situation. The adjudicators that voted 'Yes' when the information was available, the adjudicators that voted 'No' when the information wasn't available, or the submitter who removed the video evidence both during and after the submission was approved. I don't think the submitter's actions were consistent with the new Twin Galaxies' focus of transparency? Its pretty simple to me where the blame and punishment should be directed. Twin Galaxies can do the right thing here or remain complicit and alienate more members. Lets see what happens.
    "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them".

    ~A. Einstein
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  5. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 12,218
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    You know damn well what I want done. Anyone that can read people well knows exactly what they are doing. Here. And thanks @bensweeneyonbass for being the "good cop" on that thread.. I just have no tolerance for him playing us likes fools again.
    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...0-Jesse-Porter

    More than one person remembers Jesse removing his evidence after being accepted after the fact just because he could. It was a protest and I doubt they would allow that on any record keeping site.

    I would gladly take credibility loss if means removal of the circles shady tactics, especially when one person controls all the TG and YouTube content for all users in their "clique".
    The Fisher King
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  6. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 4,718
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    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...ruven-zambrano

    Another one where evidence has become available again.



  7. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 28,558
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    I note that Mr Zambrano has managed to find the time to resubmit all eleven of his claims, but no time to explain why the evidence for said claims disappeared from the original submissions.

    Dare I say that his conduct has crossed the line into muppet territory, or is it too soon to make such a judgement?
  8. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 12,218
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    Evidence is resurfacing making the dispute invalid. Actions that concern how much of a Muppet someone is can be taken up in a tribunal if you so wish. After all evidence resurfaces, I'm washing my hands of this.
    The Fisher King
  9. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 12,218
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    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass View Post
    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...ruven-zambrano

    Another one where evidence has become available again.



    Ben, could you download those, put them in a zip file, and post that file here please? This would make the evidence permanent and would make the dispute justified.

    I know it might be a little work but if there's anyone willing to dispute the rest of the scores so we can have an open discussion and able to down the rest of those videos for the sake of permanence, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm at work for a while today.
    The Fisher King
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious View Post
    Evidence is resurfacing making the dispute invalid. Actions that concern how much of a Muppet someone is can be taken up in a tribunal if you so wish. After all evidence resurfaces, I'm washing my hands of this.
    This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The fact that Mr Zambrano has made eleven new submissions indicates that he is fully aware that all his records are forfeit. Contrary to what you seem to believe, his actions reinforce the validity of this dispute. Perhaps you need to go back & read this again, to deepen your understanding of this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious View Post
    Ben, could you download those, put them in a zip file, and post that file here please? This would make the evidence permanent and would make the dispute justified.
    And this is equally senseless. If you think this dispute has been rendered "invalid", how would posting evidence within it make it "justified"?

    At any rate, posting evidence here does not fix the fact that there is no evidence posted within the disputed submission. This dispute is not about the validity of the submission's claim, it is about the simple and inescapable fact that all the submission's evidence has disappeared. The record is therefore subject to erasure. TG's policy on this matter is clear, there is no counterargument to be made, and no exceptions shall be allowed.
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