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Dispute: william rosa - Atari 2600 / VCS - Journey Escape - NTSC - Dollars - Player: Robert T Mruczek - Score: 2,054,302

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Is this a valid dispute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - In all fairness, it is more likely that someone would remember a conversation regarding the proof of the first 100M score on the title rather than the details of a mediocre 4th place performance (although then it was likely 2nd place).

    Memories are stronger when it comes to scores that had something unique, interesting or exciting about them. I seriously doubt that I remember, for example, one moment from my own submission on Atari 2600 "Space Invaders" fast zig-zagging laser variation, but I sure as heck remember being unable to understand how during an Atari deca some players were scoring 15K when I was having problems getting half as much.

    While rules must apply equally to everyone, so must reasonableness. Asking me to describe how I achieved 1.135M on "Scramble" at Funspot in 2001, I will tell you that even 16 years later I remember my first ship lasted until 475-485K...you don't forget things like that. My second died in the mid-high 600K range, my 3rd ship took me past the 1M mark to around 1.055-1.085M range (that one I am less clear on but it was under 100K from where I died), and my final ship was the record.

    You remember specifics on exceptional performances and tend to be less clear on mediocre ones. That is not unusual in our hobby...it tends to be the norm, especially when you have 20+ years worth of personal and fellow gamer scores to keep track of.
    well yes, but also, with an amazing performance, if it was a game you had no clue on versus your own record being beaten I would think you'd remember that too. Part of the amazingness of the achievement of Todds burned into your brain surely also had how you viewed it and whether or not you knew anything about the game. You dont remember if you did it before or after him still, but how is that possible if you do remember having no idea how the score worked when he got it? Would you at least agree, that if you got the score before him (notice i'm putting this inside of an "if"), and when todd got the score you had no idea how the scoring work, then the score entered on your behalf was in error? I'll acknowledge if you got the score after him then there's no case against the score, can you acknowledge if the score for you was entered before todd that it should be pulled?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    well yes, but also, with an amazing performance, if it was a game you had no clue on versus your own record being beaten I would think you'd remember that too. Part of the amazingness of the achievement of Todds burned into your brain surely also had how you viewed it and whether or not you knew anything about the game. You dont remember if you did it before or after him still, but how is that possible if you do remember having no idea how the score worked when he got it? Would you at least agree, that if you got the score before him (notice i'm putting this inside of an "if"), and when todd got the score you had no idea how the scoring work, then the score entered on your behalf was in error? I'll acknowledge if you got the score after him then there's no case against the score, can you acknowledge if the score for you was entered before todd that it should be pulled?


    RTM REPLY - it's quite possible, actually...no knowing how the game works yet still having a registered score. "How the game works", during the interview, could have applied to the 100th roll-over itself...no one knew what would happen in advance of that, much like no one knew what would happen when "Galaxian" reached the 256th stage or when "Stratovox" reached 100K for the first time.

    In each cases, players knew the game, some much better than others, but no one up to those points had any clue what would happen. In the case of "Galaxian" Aart shared publicly how the flags at the bottom of the screen were handled by the program after stage 256...not what anyone expected. And "Stratovox" at 100K, I watched the first INP myself and what I remember from that 2004 or 2005 "bounty" performance is that there was some form of indicator, I seem to recall a gold coloured digit/number or object, appearing which would help to indicate that a roll-over took place.

    Being 14 years ago since that book quote, which could have been interview-based or an excerpt from a forum post from that era, there is simply no way for me to be 100% sure of the specifics from back then. You're talking 14 years ago for specifics on a less-than-stellar performance.

    Now, if it was my "Superman" score, I tend to remember that one better as I played the heck out of that one. I corralled all but one crook at the jail when I got there but one escaped into the subway thus my 1:10 or so registered best as I lost valuable time.

    Back to "Journey Escape". There is no way for me to ever be 100% positive on the "when" element...before or after Todd. Forum posts are no longer available, "Snipercade" snapshots of the scoreboard are not available at all never mind in chronological order, and the tapes themselves God only knows what Ron did with them.

    All I am positive of is hearing from Todd how it was possible to tell that his score was $100M.

    If I did the performance before Todd, then my knowledge of the game was limited only to what the final digit showed which is great for the first 99M but not for the 100th, so in that respect what I was quoted as saying holds true, and I did $2M which was lengthy enough and ahead of other TG scores from that era, until Todd came along. And if I did the performance after Todd, I did $2M which to me was enough for the TG scoreboard as I would have had no intention to grind out even 5M let alone 10M or higher never mind Todd's score.

    Your entire score challenge is taking a comment that I made to be helpful on the forum and comparing it to my score. Just curious what would have prompted this investigation to made in the first place for a 4th place score, but that's a whole different matter.

    Unless Brien King has copies of the VERY old TG database archived, or of the original "Snipercade" site and related files, we will never know as all other documentation was lost by either TG with respect to the digital files, or hard copy lost by a TG official.
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    I also disagree that the score entered on my behalf was "in error" as you stated. While it was uploaded by Douglas MacGregor into the TG database after Ron's departure based on a data copy of the "Snipercade" scoreboard from post-Ron, the "Snipercade" file itself was maintained BY Ron.

    Again, unless Brien maintained a copy of the original "Snipercade" file, we will never know. For those who have memories going back that far, it was basically a running text file in alpha order of the titles plus scores listed in descending order with gamer, score and date. No other specifics mentioned save for any special rules if any that were not covered by the general TG rules of that era.
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    Just thought of something...I'll ask Jeff Lowe (I'm friends with him on FB) if he happened to save a copy of the old "Snipercade" database.

    I totally forgot that he may be able to help until I read this old thread...

    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...eboard-Perhaps
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    Your entire score challenge is taking a comment that I made to be helpful on the forum and comparing it to my score. Just curious what would have prompted this investigation to made in the first place for a 4th place score, but that's a whole different matter.
    l.
    sure i'd love to explain this, though i've explained it many times before. I believe all players needed to be treated equally. Whether your first place, last place, famous, unknown, well connected, friendless, it doesnt matter. I'm curious, do you think 4th place scores dont have to live up to the same standards as all other scores? Was this some historical rule i'm unfamiliar with that lower valued scores didnt require the same level of evidence? In your opinion, what makes one person or score require more evidence than another?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    sure i'd love to explain this, though i've explained it many times before. I believe all players needed to be treated equally. Whether your first place, last place, famous, unknown, well connected, friendless, it doesnt matter. I'm curious, do you think 4th place scores dont have to live up to the same standards as all other scores? Was this some historical rule i'm unfamiliar with that lower valued scores didnt require the same level of evidence? In your opinion, what makes one person or score require more evidence than another?


    RTM REPLY - You misunderstand. I'm not debating whether my 4th place score does not have to live up to the same standards...I'm asking what prompted you to look back to a comment from 6 months ago then cross-reference that comment to my score.

    Your score challenge is not based on whether the score itself is possible. Your challenge is based on a forum comment and nothing more. Don't read into why I am asking beyond that.

    If forum comments are going to become the start of future such score challenges, then I can guarantee you that no one is going to comment about mere recollections from yesteryear as anything recounted recollections deemed "shaky", to use your own word, may be used against them. My own comment was made to contribute to one situation and is now being used as the basis of a "challenge" ? Well if that's the case, I can promise you now that I won't be similarly contributing further with respect to any historical knowledge that I may have based on other players' scores if it is a title that I have a registered score on as well.

    You are creating a climate that is going to be viewed favourably by other golden era gamers who will likely continue to remain off forum. Same for interviews if words appearing in, for example, Facebook or a gaming magazine are also used as the basis for future score "challenges". It's inevitable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - You misunderstand. I'm not debating whether my 4th place score does not have to live up to the same standards...I'm asking what prompted you to look back to a comment from 6 months ago then cross-reference that comment to my score.

    Your score challenge is not based on whether the score itself is possible. Your challenge is based on a forum comment and nothing more. Don't read into why I am asking beyond that.

    If forum comments are going to become the start of future such score challenges, then I can guarantee you that no one is going to comment about mere recollections from yesteryear as anything recounted recollections deemed "shaky", to use your own word, may be used against them. My own comment was made to contribute to one situation and is now being used as the basis of a "challenge" ? Well if that's the case, I can promise you now that I won't be similarly contributing further with respect to any historical knowledge that I may have based on other players' scores if it is a title that I have a registered score on as well.

    You are creating a climate that is going to be viewed favourably by other golden era gamers who will likely continue to remain off forum. Same for interviews if words appearing in, for example, Facebook or a gaming magazine are also used as the basis for future score "challenges". It's inevitable.
    I'm sorry you feel that way, but I really have to disagree. You seem to be saying I'm creating a bad climate at twin galaxies by looking for all the data I can. I reject this, but respect you're right to your opinion. I'm sure some will agree you and see me as just terrible, I'm sure some will see what I"m doing as just fine. Anything I say against others, well its only fair it can be used against me. If letting you know that comments you make against others scores can be used against your own scores is a shock to you, then what can i say, i'm shocked that you're shocked. Is it really so unfair that the things you say about others has to apply to you equally well? You're free to take that attitude of course, but I still maintain that if you're willing to say something about someone else its only fair that it can be applied right back to you. I just don't understand this concept of some people being above the rules. Regardless thank you for your cooperation here, I do feel more good has come out of this than would've been possible if you didnt get involved.
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    I've been thinking more about this, and an interesting point is made. I can definitely see people not exposing problems with others scores if it reveals problems with their own scores, so using that against their score does indeed have a down side, I concede this point. At the same time though, ignoring issues is also a problem.

    I think the legal word has a similiar issue and deals with it with "immunity" and "plea bargaining". If someone helps take down someone else, then the testimony used doing so cant be used against them as part of the deal. Thats not a simple case at all to decide when to give immunity and when not, and in my opinion it should never transfer to the gaming world. Crime and gaming are very different. Still, it does make for an interesting point. Should we consider a possibility where testimony against one score can never be used against the person incriminating themselves with that testimony? Possible, its worth discussing. There'd have to be all sorts of safeguards though, otherwise all anyone would have to do is confess ahead of time, rat someone out and gain instant immunity, i dont think we want that either. An interesting new topic to say the least. So while I'll acknowledge its an important point the "climate" that's being created I think the conversation is complex enough to deserve its own thread. If you'd like to start such a thread I'd be happy to contribute my thoughts on the matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    You seem to be saying I'm creating a bad climate at twin galaxies by looking for all the data I can.


    RTM REPLY - actually that is not what I am saying at all.

    "Looking at all the data (that you can)" is fine...there are tens of thousands of scores in the TG database many of which are from yesteryear.

    What you are doing, in the case of this "challenge", is a little bit different. Based on no documentation whatsoever...documentation being empirical evidence...you launched a score challenge.

    That's troubling enough, but if you continue down the path of analyzing old forum comments dating back 6 months, 9 months, 12 months, two years, etc, what is your real goal here ? Not purifying the database so much as ripping apart statements made during loosely or potentially unrelated forum discussions. And should you start using comments made from third party media sources...such as Facebook, for one...where does it end ? And what is the true driving purpose behind this ?

    You're going beyond the scope of a basic score challenge now. This seems to be to be the beginnings of a witch hunt.

    I'm all for validating some of the scores of old as there are more than a few zingers waiting to be questioned...here are three ranked from questionable to HIGHLY questionable...

    -> "Cosmic Avenger" (Arcade) - 117K
    -> "Jump Bug" (Arcade) - 850K
    -> "Polaris" (Arcade) - 791K and perhaps the most bogus vintage TG arcade record of all time

    With so many scores to look into, you are looking at a 6 month old forum post, THEN cross-checking the score of someone that gave a quote within that post, and THEN took the time to launch a challenge with no documentation whatsoever, just conjecture ?

    That's not a matter of questioning whether some scores are beyond question or whether scores should be treated equally...you actively sought this one out...with all the other problems out there...merely because it happened to be mine. That's not looking out for the integrity of the database. That's a personal vendetta playing itself out.

    I cannot launch score challenges else there are three I mentioned which are well worth investigating, especially the last one.

    It's your challenge...I'm not voting against it merely because it is my own score just as I've never voted accept on any of my submissions and I won't change suite now. But of all the scores to pick from the tens of thousands out there...this is the one you chose. A score that has never come under the radar before, a score that is eminently do-able.

    Someone, since deleted from TG, recently questioned my score on an Atari 2600 game before they were kicked off and the thread removed by an admin, on the grounds that I "could not possibly" have gotten good at the game in question. The game was "Venture" and my score is 38,900 which is WAAAY under the leader score. Again, a score "challenge" not based on whether the score was do-able at all, but based on speculation that someone could not have developed the skillset ?

    THAT is the "climate" that I meant before based on the path that you are going down. "Challenges" based on conjecture, age-old thread comments, possibly third party site/forum comments or old interviews. No one from "old TG" will say anything at this point...why should they ? Why should Dwayne, for example, make any comment about "Blaster" if it would be picked apart to challenge a 30 year old record ? Why should a Jack Gale, for example, grant an interview to discuss his "Mad Crasher" score which is nearly four times the second highest mark if it will only result in questions about his own achievement ?

    You do not want to go down this path.

    Tell you what...bring an Atari 2600 to ACAM next November when should be able to return for my annual vacation, hook it up to the cabin TV, and watch me play live. I might need an hour's practice to remember what to do, but I am sure I can crank out a $2M score easily enough.

    Or...or...continue down the path, and question, for example, my MARP score and MAME score of 20 million on "Chiller" where the INP does not play back BUT which was personally witnessed live in New Hampshire by Martin Bedard AND Kelly Flewin, mentioned on the MARP site. The MARP people did not question that, but maybe you can if you are in the mood, after all, no INP means score challenge !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - actually that is not what I am saying at all.

    "Looking at all the data (that you can)" is fine...there are tens of thousands of scores in the TG database many of which are from yesteryear.

    What you are doing, in the case of this "challenge", is a little bit different. Based on no documentation whatsoever...documentation being empirical evidence...you launched a score challenge.

    That's troubling enough, but if you continue down the path of analyzing old forum comments dating back 6 months, 9 months, 12 months, two years, etc, what is your real goal here ? Not purifying the database so much as ripping apart statements made during loosely or potentially unrelated forum discussions. And should you start using comments made from third party media sources...such as Facebook, for one...where does it end ? And what is the true driving purpose behind this ?

    You're going beyond the scope of a basic score challenge now. This seems to be to be the beginnings of a witch hunt.

    I'm all for validating some of the scores of old as there are more than a few zingers waiting to be questioned...here are three ranked from questionable to HIGHLY questionable...

    -> "Cosmic Avenger" (Arcade) - 117K
    -> "Jump Bug" (Arcade) - 850K
    -> "Polaris" (Arcade) - 791K and perhaps the most bogus vintage TG arcade record of all time

    With so many scores to look into, you are looking at a 6 month old forum post, THEN cross-checking the score of someone that gave a quote within that post, and THEN took the time to launch a challenge with no documentation whatsoever, just conjecture ?

    That's not a matter of questioning whether some scores are beyond question or whether scores should be treated equally...you actively sought this one out...with all the other problems out there...merely because it happened to be mine. That's not looking out for the integrity of the database. That's a personal vendetta playing itself out.

    I cannot launch score challenges else there are three I mentioned which are well worth investigating, especially the last one.

    It's your challenge...I'm not voting against it merely because it is my own score just as I've never voted accept on any of my submissions and I won't change suite now. But of all the scores to pick from the tens of thousands out there...this is the one you chose. A score that has never come under the radar before, a score that is eminently do-able.

    Someone, since deleted from TG, recently questioned my score on an Atari 2600 game before they were kicked off and the thread removed by an admin, on the grounds that I "could not possibly" have gotten good at the game in question. The game was "Venture" and my score is 38,900 which is WAAAY under the leader score. Again, a score "challenge" not based on whether the score was do-able at all, but based on speculation that someone could not have developed the skillset ?

    THAT is the "climate" that I meant before based on the path that you are going down. "Challenges" based on conjecture, age-old thread comments, possibly third party site/forum comments or old interviews. No one from "old TG" will say anything at this point...why should they ? Why should Dwayne, for example, make any comment about "Blaster" if it would be picked apart to challenge a 30 year old record ? Why should a Jack Gale, for example, grant an interview to discuss his "Mad Crasher" score which is nearly four times the second highest mark if it will only result in questions about his own achievement ?

    You do not want to go down this path.

    Tell you what...bring an Atari 2600 to ACAM next November when should be able to return for my annual vacation, hook it up to the cabin TV, and watch me play live. I might need an hour's practice to remember what to do, but I am sure I can crank out a $2M score easily enough.

    Or...or...continue down the path, and question, for example, my MARP score and MAME score of 20 million on "Chiller" where the INP does not play back BUT which was personally witnessed live in New Hampshire by Martin Bedard AND Kelly Flewin, mentioned on the MARP site. The MARP people did not question that, but maybe you can if you are in the mood, after all, no INP means score challenge !!

    I see, so you're not really defending your score, or countering my challenge so much as countering my right to even make the challenge in the first place. you're taking this very personally and resorting just to ad hominems. If someone else launched the exact same challenge for the exact same reasons would you still take the same issue?

    As for telling me what path I dont want to go down, I disagree, because again, i insist on treating everyone as equals. I understand you find it deeply offensive to be treated as an equal, but until a rule comes out saying certain people are to be given special treatment I'll go on responding to your scores the same way I'd respond to anyone else's score.

    you mention no one has questioned it before, well isnt that the point of the dispute system? Someone has to be first. If the rule is noone can be the first and question something noone else has, then noone would ever be able to launch a dispute.

    You mention other scores not being challenged, I can only challenge so many. Again, you could say this about anything, even your favorite 3. If i challenged one of them, you could ask why not the other 2? One thing at a time. I didnt see you make any similiar complaints about the scores of other people I challenged. Why is only the score of yours I challenged so inappropriate?

    If there's something you think needs to be challenged, then present the evidence to someone willing to make the challenge on your behalf. I'll make the same offer to you I make to anyone else, give me your reasons for challenging the score, and if I agree, i'll launch the challenge for you. If your real issue is that you want to see other scores challenged as well, then we can talk about that for sure.

    You mention about whether the score is doable as opposed to whether or not the person did it. Well you contradict yourself here. Because in cases were scores are proven impossible based on last digit, you defend them if you think the player is capable of a higher score. So in that case it didnt matter to you if the score was impossible as long as the player himself did higher. Well then, if you yourself dont just look at the possibility of the score, but also the player and performance then why cant I? Again, you can use these words in other disputes, but they dont apply to you equally well? Most challenges focus on the doability of the score, because if a score is impossible thats pretty solid proof the person didnt do it. However, if the score is possible but theres another reason to believe the person didnt do it, thats valid too.

    You again bring up this will turn people away if they have their comments used. I wonder how many people are actually afraid their own comments implicate them. The only people who would fear interviews in such a case are those who have something to hide. But it goes further than that as you contradict yourself here taking a new stance that you didnt take when todd was challenged, but now suddenly for you a new rule that contradicts how you yourself behave is need. I'll remind you.

    Many people have used todds interviews and commments against him, and i didnt see you complain there. People have used billy mitchel's comments again him -- you yourself have recounted memories with billy when he was working with TG and used those actions against him. I find it very hypocritical that you dont mind using other peoples comments, actions, interviews, etc,... against them, but think somehow you should be immune from this. I tell you what, if a new rule is passed saying that peoples own words cant be used against them then I'll obey it. Until then though, what you're asking for is special treatment. you're asking for one set of rules that doesnt apply to anyone else and that you yourself dont follow when dealing with others. I find this very unfair. I have not brought up our other arguments in this and tried to stay on point, but if you want to make this completely personal then look at the comments here and notice it is you who are trying to read my mind and making accusations whereas I am looking at something you actually said.

    I realize I'm directly talking about you personally, but your questions were directly about you and me, so while i regret its gotten somewhat personal I'm only answering in a personal way because thats what you asked of me. If i may make a suggestion, this conversation would be far more productive if it was about the score itself since that is whats being challenged here. Everything else is a distraction. Good points for sure, but perhaps they would be better discussed in another thread
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