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Dispute: william rosa - Atari 2600 / VCS - Journey Escape - NTSC - Dollars - Player: Robert T Mruczek - Score: 2,054,302

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 5,644
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    Circumstantial evidence at best. Voting no

    Next!
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    So this isnt evidence, more directed @RTM personally to hope to deescalate thing and keep them on track.

    You yourself brought up two good points, one about the original comments being 8 months old, and also about when the banned member accused your venture score of being fake, i would like to elaborate on these

    1. When your venture score was accused of being fake, you actually said to feel free and challenge it and remove it theres something wrong with it (I'm guessing you thought maybe there was a typo or wrong digit?). I spoke up and said I saw nothing wrong with the score. So while you remember someone else criticizing the score, I think it would be good for you also to remember I defended you there and consider that maybe I really do care about the scores and its not personal despite it often escalating that way. If any of your scores which I believe to be real are challenged I will speak up in your defense as I did before. If you allow yourself to remember all the times I took your side and not just the times we were opposite each other I think you'll see my main concern is the scoreboard itself

    2. When your original post was made, a challenge system hadnt existed yet, so it would make no sense to challenge your score than as it wasnt even possible. Also throughout these 8 months you and I have had several flare ups, had I challenged the score during any one of those points I would've understood you thinking it was just part of a vendetta and I wanted to avoid that so I wanted for a cooldown. Sadly, when one thing cooled down another thing heated up. Then though look at the wabbit thread, we finally started working together well. You brought up the 100% rule, I tried to help you and find it, before I can find it you found it. We had a good discussion there. Finally, things were going smoothly which means a good chance to finaly get around to challenging this score that I have been waiting for so long to get to.
    I would hope the fact i had so much patience and waited so many months for a cool down between us to make the challenge would show that although I put the scoreboard above your feeling, your feelings do matter to me too, and if i can find a way to protect the scoreboard in a way thats considerate of your feelings I'll be paitent and wait for the right time. I dont see how my waiting so long is being turned into a negative. There were plenty of far worse times for me to make this challenge, doesnt avoiding the challenge at those times say something?

    Look, I've taken your side before, though I think you forgot those cases because when we agree the discussion quickly ends, its only when we argue the discussion gets really heated and burned in memory. But fact is, if what I believe is right for the scoreboard means taking your side, then I'll take your side, if what I believe is right for the scoreboard means going against you, then I'll go against you. If a scoreboard with integrity is a turnoff to a certain group off players, then I'll push for the intergity that turns away those players. If a scoreboard with integrity appeals to a group of players then I'll push for the integrity that pulls those players in.

    I'm sure theres some things we'd both agree are good for the scorebaord and we could work together. You've brought up 3 scores that you think are fake. Please, tell me why, convince me. My offer to make the challenge on your behalf wasnt just rhetoric. I will in fact make the challenge on your behalf if I believe your case against the score. So lets work together on that.
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    So this isnt evidence, more directed @RTM personally to hope to deescalate thing and keep them on track.

    You yourself brought up two good points, one about the original comments being 8 months old, and also about when the banned member accused your venture score of being fake, i would like to elaborate on these

    1. When your venture score was accused of being fake, you actually said to feel free and challenge it and remove it theres something wrong with it (I'm guessing you thought maybe there was a typo or wrong digit?). I spoke up and said I saw nothing wrong with the score. So while you remember someone else criticizing the score, I think it would be good for you also to remember I defended you there and consider that maybe I really do care about the scores and its not personal despite it often escalating that way. If any of your scores which I believe to be real are challenged I will speak up in your defense as I did before. If you allow yourself to remember all the times I took your side and not just the times we were opposite each other I think you'll see my main concern is the scoreboard itself

    2. When your original post was made, a challenge system hadnt existed yet, so it would make no sense to challenge your score than as it wasnt even possible. Also throughout these 8 months you and I have had several flare ups, had I challenged the score during any one of those points I would've understood you thinking it was just part of a vendetta and I wanted to avoid that so I wanted for a cooldown. Sadly, when one thing cooled down another thing heated up. Then though look at the wabbit thread, we finally started working together well. You brought up the 100% rule, I tried to help you and find it, before I can find it you found it. We had a good discussion there. Finally, things were going smoothly which means a good chance to finaly get around to challenging this score that I have been waiting for so long to get to.
    I would hope the fact i had so much patience and waited so many months for a cool down between us to make the challenge would show that although I put the scoreboard above your feeling, your feelings do matter to me too, and if i can find a way to protect the scoreboard in a way thats considerate of your feelings I'll be paitent and wait for the right time. I dont see how my waiting so long is being turned into a negative. There were plenty of far worse times for me to make this challenge, doesnt avoiding the challenge at those times say something?

    Look, I've taken your side before, though I think you forgot those cases because when we agree the discussion quickly ends, its only when we argue the discussion gets really heated and burned in memory. But fact is, if what I believe is right for the scoreboard means taking your side, then I'll take your side, if what I believe is right for the scoreboard means going against you, then I'll go against you. If a scoreboard with integrity is a turnoff to a certain group off players, then I'll push for the intergity that turns away those players. If a scoreboard with integrity appeals to a group of players then I'll push for the integrity that pulls those players in.

    I'm sure theres some things we'd both agree are good for the scorebaord and we could work together. You've brought up 3 scores that you think are fake. Please, tell me why, convince me. My offer to make the challenge on your behalf wasnt just rhetoric. I will in fact make the challenge on your behalf if I believe your case against the score. So lets work together on that.
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    @admin staff (or @adminstaff i always get them confused) I only posted once above but it got duplicated, if one of the comments gets removed for moderation, redundancy, clutter, whatever I'd appreciate it. thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    1. When your venture score was accused of being fake, you actually said to feel free and challenge it and remove it theres something wrong with it (I'm guessing you thought maybe there was a typo or wrong digit?)


    RTM REPLY - of course I said this...my scores are all legit, none are embellished. Bring it on. My only problem scores have since been removed...at my own request...once it was discovered that the settings on "Indiana Jones" at ACAM were set to one extra man.

    As for your other comments that I am more debating your challenge of my score rather than defending my score...

    The reality here is that your challenge is circumstantial AS IS any "defense" I might have because (A) the former TG referee either discarded or destroyed all submitted evidence and (B) unlike my MAME performance I never saved ANY copy of my VHS performances. All were duly submitted to TG referees and the entire cache of my N64, Sega DC and Sony PS1 scores ended up going to Shawn Cram in New Hampshire in 2007 to retain custody for TG until TG could re-acquire at its own expense. Otherwise I would be saving to this day 500+ VHS cassettes which takes up a LOT of space.

    The expectation to save a VHS performance for so many years is a problem on this site. You don't even have to save certain personal and corporate documents for IRS purposes after 7 years, so why should you have to save a TG performance ad infinitum because of a score challenge 10, 15, 20 years later or more ? Makes no sense...no practical sense anyway.

    As for the score itself. I'm not defending it because it was done...period. It's a 4th place score. I'm not going to "defend" this score to the same extent that I am not going to "defend" my Atari 2600 #1 score on "Cruise Missile", or my #1 score on "Warplock", or my #10 score on "UFO" for the Odyssey 2 system. All of these scores and well over a thousand more are largely 10, 15 and 20 years old. Put me in front of a 2600, give me an hour or two to relearn the game, and I'm sure that I can come close to what I did before. More time would allow for matching or passing most scores, but some were pretty good and take more than just some time...and that's the problem...time. These scores were done 15-20 years ago for the Atari 2600, back when I could leave work at 5:00pm nightly and have no family concerns at all after hours or on weekends. Things are different now which explains why I no longer game on consoles for the past nearly 10 years.

    Your asking for "defense" which implies either hard-copy proof or recollection. I cannot provide the former, and I have already provided the latter. Mind you, this is for your circumstantial challenge based on no other evidence than an 8 month old forum post, implying that golden era gamers best say nada on the forums for fear of what you are doing.

    The score itself I stand by. I am 100% sure that the score can be duplicated as it was only a 4th place performance.

    As for my initial reply to your "challenge"...it's not so much that it IS a "challenge", it's a question of what motivated or initiated this particular challenge in the here and now, and that is what I said earlier is a climate that you are creating. This is the start of a path that you simply do not want to travel down as it carries with it some very troubling implications.

    What's next...challenging all of the ACAM scores because the vast majority of the event scores were witnessed by pseudo-referees who Gary paid $10/hour to just to get called over and log a final screenshot score without having to watch if any cheating occurred ? Go down THAT path and say goodbye to virtually every classic arcade player on this site. Go down the path of questioning EVERY single score verified by former referee Ron Corcoran and say goodbye to some of the longest standing 2600 players and contributors to TG. And I'm not even going to mention scores that Walter himself entered into the TG database based on collecting them from unverified online sources, some of which may still be present.

    I am done with this "challenge"...it is no challenge, it is the beginnings of a witch hunt based on circumstantial evidence at best. And for a 4th place score, no less. This is more of a personal vendetta than a responsible vetting of the TG database. I've said my peace.
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    No direct evidence has been delivered to support this claim. Voting no without hesitation or reservation.

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  7. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,869
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    Your asking for "defense" which implies either hard-copy proof or recollection. I cannot provide the former, and I have already provided the latter. Mind you, this is for your circumstantial challenge based on no other evidence than an 8 month old forum post, implying that golden era gamers best say nada on the forums for fear of what you are doing.
    You're severely misrepresenting this. Of course someone randomly sharing something old in a casual setting where memories arent perfect shouldnt be used against them. But you brought these points up as a way to bring doubt on Todd. That is key. Your yourself thought the information was good enough to be used against someone else. So yes, anyone who wants to attack another player's score should be careful not to do so if they dont want that attack being scrutinized. Same rules for everyone. If your words were well thought out enough to be used against todd, they're well thought out enough to be used against you. If they're unfair to be used against you, then they're unfair to be used against todd and you owe him an apology. You cant have it both ways. Although as the words were yours, your clarification has to be accepted on face value and therefore this challenge should fail. Also though its important this was discussed so that in can be cross referenced when the same words are considered against todd. The only thing anyone should have to "fear" from their words is that thing apply equally well to them or others, so sure, I guess if you dont want to be treated on equal terms it might be best not to bring those things up.


    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    The score itself I stand by. I am 100% sure that the score can be duplicated as it was only a 4th place performance.
    The position of the score is irrelevant. All scores require equal attention. If you take this attitude then there are many scores with impossible final digits that have to stand simply because someone else beat them. These lower position scores harm the integrity of the database regardless of their position

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    As for my initial reply to your "challenge"...it's not so much that it IS a "challenge", it's a question of what motivated or initiated this particular challenge in the here and now, and that is what I said earlier is a climate that you are creating. This is the start of a path that you simply do not want to travel down as it carries with it some very troubling implications.
    Again, you dont get to decide what I "want"; this is the path I want to go down. I think thats the real source of the conflict here, you seem to want to control me and dont accept I have the right to disagree with you even though I can accept you have the right to disagree with me. You've previously spoken against the entire dispute system, so not just my challenge, but any challenge being inappropriate and that the entire system is flawed. If you think the system itself is flawed then of course you object to my particular challenge as well, your objection would hold more weight if you at least saw the value of the system in general and acknowledged that getting a correct scoreboard was more important than allowing errors just to make some favorites happy and tempt them to come back.

    As for what motivates me, I've answered what motivated me yet you keep wanting to turn it into something else with false accusations. Yes, our arguments have heated up before, but precisely because of this attitude. Any disagreement with you, you try to turn it personal, and then when it gets personal you cry foul. I'm not taking the bait this time. I am only responding on a personal level to the direct accusations you make about me as well as your questions on how i relate to you. Thats it, anything personal I say is a direct response to what you've brought up.

    I cant emphasize enough that despite temporary frustration that leaves as quickly as it started I have no vendetta or emotions against you. I am very happy to work with you on a common goal if you ever so desire. I again make my offer to help you with those scores you claim you wanted challenged. You were quick to bring them as very important to remove, well, here's my offer to help you. Or is it more important to you to have a fight with me than to solve what you claim is a problem? Also within your rights i suppose. Find a goal where we can work together and I'll be thrilled to prove theres no ill will on my part and my disagreements with you stem entirely from my concern for the scoreboard. I would love an opportunity to work with you and prove that. Al I can do is offer teamwork, and try to show my willingness to work with you as much as possible after that, if you choose to continue to view me in the worst light possible, thats your choice.
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    I'm going back to the beginning to confirm the precise scope of this dispute and the evidence it cites.

    "Score owner couldn't possibly have achieved such a score on a game that he claims he didnt even know about"; which looks like Journey Escape.

    Snowflake, you then include the following quote:

    In expressing his doubt over Todd's Journey Escape score he says at http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post893029 "Now for the other performance. I was told by that other referee only some specifics including how it was a "105 hour marathon" yet included a few hours of sleep in between. Not even knowing the game I had no idea if the game even allowed for the possibility of unattended break-time. I also never found out who verified this score...could have been the referee who played "Journey Escape" or it could have been the "Commodore 64" referee at the time, who was best buds with the "Intellivision" referee."

    RTM's overall reply is in response to Intellivision Master who cited what he believed to be an impossible score on Tron Deadly Discs due to the amount of time required. RTM then went on to recount a "battle" between two refs for top dog involving Ms Pac Man, and another that was essentially a marathon competition - one chose Journey Escape, the other chose Tron Deadly Discs. RTM discussed Journey Escape first, and then wrote "Now for the other performance...," which I take as Tron Deadly Discs. "Not even knowing the game" is a reference to Tron Deadly Discs, no?
  9. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 7,869
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I'm going back to the beginning to confirm the precise scope of this dispute and the evidence it cites.

    "Score owner couldn't possibly have achieved such a score on a game that he claims he didnt even know about"; which looks like Journey Escape.

    Snowflake, you then include the following quote:

    In expressing his doubt over Todd's Journey Escape score he says at http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post893029 "Now for the other performance. I was told by that other referee only some specifics including how it was a "105 hour marathon" yet included a few hours of sleep in between. Not even knowing the game I had no idea if the game even allowed for the possibility of unattended break-time. I also never found out who verified this score...could have been the referee who played "Journey Escape" or it could have been the "Commodore 64" referee at the time, who was best buds with the "Intellivision" referee."

    RTM's overall reply is in response to Intellivision Master who cited what he believed to be an impossible score on Tron Deadly Discs due to the amount of time required. RTM then went on to recount a "battle" between two refs for top dog involving Ms Pac Man, and another that was essentially a marathon competition - one chose Journey Escape, the other chose Tron Deadly Discs. RTM discussed Journey Escape first, and then wrote "Now for the other performance...," which I take as Tron Deadly Discs. "Not even knowing the game" is a reference to Tron Deadly Discs, no?
    hmm, i was pretty sure of my interpretation at the time, and never once in all the other stuff debated back and forth was this point ever contested, even still I see what you mean. If thats true then this dispute is immediately all nullified. Man I wish it didnt have to go to a dispute, and then go this far when a miscommunication could've been cleared up more easily any point a long the way.

    Can you confirm this robert? If the evener is correct then I apologize for a dispute that was unneeded. Also, if we can agree to a way that you think I can discuss with you other disputes ahead of time, a pre-dispute of sorts, to avoid an unnecessary official dispute that could help prevent this in the future.
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    RTM may choose not to participate in this dispute again, so I've cut and pasted the entire quote you cited from the Impossible Scores thread (post #280)

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - if you are referring to the Corcoran score then you are likely correct...this score is BS.

    There was a bit of a "one-upsmanship" going on between Ron Corcoran and another TG referee at the time in terms of two (2) records..."Ms Pacman" for the Atari 2600, and the longevity record for console gaming.

    On one front ("MsPacman") the two of them on an almost daily-basis or every other day would submit a slightly higher world record score. Guess how they were verified...A-reviews-B while B-reviews-A.

    It made no practical sense how this was happening simultaneous with one of them holding a full-time job either. But both were senior referees and one was a Board member on top of that, while the other was the referee in-charge of the entire Atari platform.

    The other bout of one-upsmanship was contested on two different fronts...one gamer opted for "Tron Deadly Discs" for the Inty, while the other chose "Journey Escape" for the 2600.

    "Journey Escape" was an 85-hour marathon accomplished by sitting on a recliner chair for the entire time. Don't ask about specifics in terms of bodily functions...I'm not going there. The other referee verified this one...I never saw so much as a 60-second clip of it, just a pic of the final screen showing how you can tell it is a 100M+ score.

    Now for the other performance. I was told by that other referee only some specifics including how it was a "105 hour marathon" yet included a few hours of sleep inbetween. Not even knowing the game I had no idea if the game even allowed for the possibility of unattended break-time. I also never found out who verified this score...could have been the referee who played "Journey Escape" or it could have been the "Commodore 64" referee at the time, who was best buds with the "Intellivision" referee.

    Equally mystifying is how this referee managed to pull this off while simultaneously holding down a full-time job and tending to a family. I will NOT go into specifics about the family aspect, but in general it never made any apparent sense to me how this was pulled off.

    I did only two (2) registered TG marathons in my entire gaming "career"...one was inbetween jobs so I had no responsibilities whatsoever (arcade "Star Wars"), and the other was while I was on vacation once I was in the work-force (Atari ST "Time Bandit").

    I am of the opinion that the "Tron" score should be yanked without question. This would not be the first time that the referee -in-question did something that I would to be highly dubious with respect to their scores.

    Case in point was the Atari/Coleco Decathlon in the 2000-2003 range. One of the ten titles (5 from each) was "Zaxxon" for the CV. At the time of the 60-day competition, the lead scorer on the title (Ron) had a score of a whopping 800K. For those who remember the extreme details of this event, I participated but did not even own a CV until 35-days into the event due to an Ebay purchase made expressly so that I could compete.

    Anyway, my early attempts only yielded 200K but things clicked and in short order I turned in a score of 2M near the end of the event...more than double Ron's previous score and catapulting me into the event leader position.

    With not even 2 days to go before the end of the event, Ron was scheduled to be on vacation in Vegas with the family. According to Ron...and to this day I shake my head at this...he used a laptop and emulator (the competition allowed for either) and cranked out a 1.5M score DURING his family vacation. To this day I do not know how he managed to make the time to do so, but that score, in the end, put him into the statistical leader position. And I never saw one single moment of that score. The submission was supposed to be verified by Stephen Knox as Ron never sent me any of his performances from that event. Now, I went from 200K to 2M in a matter of days so it is a given that an 800K player can go to 1.5M, but during the family vacation ?

    Whatever, that was now 13+ years ago, In any event, the "Tron" score is likely a bunch of ego-inflated bunk during a p*ssing match between two referees competing for the dubious distinction of having the lengthiest console marathon as well as the "Ms Pacman" Atari 2600 leader spot.

    My recollection is quite clear on this.
    RTM opens the discussion in his topic sentence (which I bolded) by referencing Tron Deadly Discs and Journey Escape. RTM turned to Journey Escape first, however, in the first instance; so in the second instance, it doesn't jive that he would then claim that he didn't "even know[] the game," The 'other performance' must be a reference to the second game he cites at the topic sentence, Tron Deadly Discs. RTM returns to the subject by advocating for the removal of Tron Deadly Discs at the end.
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