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Dispute: william rosa - Atari 2600 / VCS - Journey Escape - NTSC - Dollars - Player: Robert T Mruczek - Score: 2,054,302

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    Dispute: william rosa - Atari 2600 / VCS - Journey Escape - NTSC - Dollars - Player: Robert T Mruczek - Score: 2,054,302

    Atari 2600 / VCS - Journey Escape - NTSC - Dollars
    Score Trackhttp://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=2124
    RulesDefault Settings
    Player NameRobert T Mruczek
    Original AdjudicationN/A
    Verification MethodReferee
    Verification Date2001-06-19
    Disputed Score2,054,302 (Rank 4)
    Disputed BySnowflake
    Dispute Evidence / RationaleScore owner couldn't possibly have achieved such a score on a game that he claims he didnt even know about.


    In expressing his doubt over Todd's Journey Escape score he says at http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post893029 "Now for the other performance. I was told by that other referee only some specifics including how it was a "105 hour marathon" yet included a few hours of sleep in between. Not even knowing the game I had no idea if the game even allowed for the possibility of unattended break-time. I also never found out who verified this score...could have been the referee who played "Journey Escape" or it could have been the "Commodore 64" referee at the time, who was best buds with the "Intellivision" referee."


    This is an editable thread, if the thread does get edited I have saved the relevant screenshots and can make them available.


    This is of note, because in the process of establishing he had nothing to do with Todd's suspicious score he goes beyond simply stating he wasn't the ref, but further that didn't even know the game. So I have to ask, how could someone who didn't know the game possibly have achieved this score?
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    I'm going to respond to this thread as "Snowflake" has now gone overboard in his personal vendetta against me.

    If he took the time to notice this the dates on both performances are identical. June 19th of 2001. I was operating in the role of "Contributing Editor/Referee" during that timeframe. Access to the TG database was still restricted to just point-of-origin (Walter), and Corcoran was in charge of "Snipercade", the off-site Atari 2600 TG world record database which was merged into the TG database after his departure.

    I had been sending in Atari 2600 scores to TG between the late 1990's and approx 2002/2003. The dates attributed to the scores from the Corcoran era were taken directly from his off-site database. He was responsible for the accuracy of the dates. With Corcoran gone, the dates and scores were entered as is into the TG database via Access.MDB upload.

    The exact date that either score was achieved is unknown as no such documentation exists outside of what was sent into Corcoran who, which was discovered after a police investigation, had without anyone's knowledge discarded, destroyed or stored off-site the vast majority of Twin Galaxies documentation sent to him for validation.

    As for the score itself...

    The quote that I gave was issued in 2017 recounting the addition of Todd' score into the TG database. My quote mentions that at the time Todd's score was accepted by TG, I was unaware of the specifics of the game or who verified the performance or who entered it into the Snipercade database (I also never knew if Corcoran allowed either Brien King or Shane Monroe access privileges to his Snipercade database).

    Now...if "Snowflake" did some real research rather than picking nits out of a quote, he would have found this...

    https://books.google.com/books?id=iQ...escape&f=false


    Here, a disinterested 3rd party source attributes the date of Todd's score to 2003 based on a quote that he/she found that I must have given myself at some point, either directly to the author or as part of some former TG forum post from yesteryear.

    Why Todd's score is dated 6/19/01 is unknown. Why my own score is dated 6/19/01 is unknown. It is entirely possible that I did my own score in 2003 as well...after Todd's was performed. The documentation is lost due to Corcoran's handling of TG documentation within his custody.

    While in the here and now I personally do not have any great pride in the score I did, which in the here and now is all of 4th place, I find it most curious how "Snowflake" just happened to be checking my score versus a quote I gave 6 months ago on the TG forum. Makes me wonder if he has a personal vendetta against me...would not surprise me at all, however, as this is how he seems to roll.

    Without any documentation within TG's possession, and as I have owned no Atari 2600 system for 11+ years now, I have no capacity to "re-game" on an original console nor do I intend to "re-game" via emulator for a 4th place score which was one of hundreds that I submitted back in the day for the 2600 console.

    While I will not vote against myself in this dispute, I will not vote for myself either. I'm just content to see "Snowflake" showing how petty he came be in this very forum. Enjoy your little victory as I am sure this "challenge" will success even though I know damn well that this mediocre 4th place score was submitted to Twin Galaxies on videotape according to TG standards back in the day, and duly approved by then-TG referee Ron Corcoran.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    I'm going to respond to this thread as "Snowflake" has now gone overboard in his personal vendetta against me.

    If he took the time to notice this the dates on both performances are identical. June 19th of 2001. I was operating in the role of "Contributing Editor/Referee" during that timeframe. Access to the TG database was still restricted to just point-of-origin (Walter), and Corcoran was in charge of "Snipercade", the off-site Atari 2600 TG world record database which was merged into the TG database after his departure.

    I had been sending in Atari 2600 scores to TG between the late 1990's and approx 2002/2003. The dates attributed to the scores from the Corcoran era were taken directly from his off-site database. He was responsible for the accuracy of the dates. With Corcoran gone, the dates and scores were entered as is into the TG database via Access.MDB upload.

    The exact date that either score was achieved is unknown as no such documentation exists outside of what was sent into Corcoran who, which was discovered after a police investigation, had without anyone's knowledge discarded, destroyed or stored off-site the vast majority of Twin Galaxies documentation sent to him for validation.

    As for the score itself...

    The quote that I gave was issued in 2017 recounting the addition of Todd' score into the TG database. My quote mentions that at the time Todd's score was accepted by TG, I was unaware of the specifics of the game or who verified the performance or who entered it into the Snipercade database (I also never knew if Corcoran allowed either Brien King or Shane Monroe access privileges to his Snipercade database).

    Now...if "Snowflake" did some real research rather than picking nits out of a quote, he would have found this...

    https://books.google.com/books?id=iQ...escape&f=false


    Here, a disinterested 3rd party source attributes the date of Todd's score to 2003 based on a quote that he/she found that I must have given myself at some point, either directly to the author or as part of some former TG forum post from yesteryear.

    Why Todd's score is dated 6/19/01 is unknown. Why my own score is dated 6/19/01 is unknown. It is entirely possible that I did my own score in 2003 as well...after Todd's was performed. The documentation is lost due to Corcoran's handling of TG documentation within his custody.

    While in the here and now I personally do not have any great pride in the score I did, which in the here and now is all of 4th place, I find it most curious how "Snowflake" just happened to be checking my score versus a quote I gave 6 months ago on the TG forum. Makes me wonder if he has a personal vendetta against me...would not surprise me at all, however, as this is how he seems to roll.

    Without any documentation within TG's possession, and as I have owned no Atari 2600 system for 11+ years now, I have no capacity to "re-game" on an original console nor do I intend to "re-game" via emulator for a 4th place score which was one of hundreds that I submitted back in the day for the 2600 console.

    While I will not vote against myself in this dispute, I will not vote for myself either. I'm just content to see "Snowflake" showing how petty he came be in this very forum. Enjoy your little victory as I am sure this "challenge" will success even though I know damn well that this mediocre 4th place score was submitted to Twin Galaxies on videotape according to TG standards back in the day, and duly approved by then-TG referee Ron Corcoran.
    Thank you for the response. I want you to feel comfortable that despite any issues we have the scoreboard is paramount to me, in fact, isnt that what all our arguments have been over? My only concern here is accuracy of the scoreboard, and that concern sometimes gets heated. I fully understand me being the one to start the dispute against you could be viewed in a certain way but please rest assured I have no desire to pollute the scoreboard over anything personal, it would defeat the entire point of being here.

    Its interesting you reference that book as "real research", so then, for the record are you claiming quotes in that book are accurate? I didnt want to just trust that book, I preferred to trust your quotes here as people can be misquoted. Now though that you have called that book and its quotes on you "real research", thank you, I will now regard the other quotes in it you gave as accurate as well. A very interesting read.

    I'm aware the dates are incorrect, but you seem to be implying you did your score later and this of course would reconcile how you could not know the game yet still acheive the score which would of course negate the entire concern on this score. I just want to be crystal clear on this point though, are you claiming you did your score AFTER todd's? The exact date isnt relevant, but whether or not you did it AFTER todd as you are heavily implying here is key. If you're willing to explicitly state rather than just imply it that would be useful.
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    One more thing...about the quote attributed to me in the book link that I provided.

    I'm not even sure who the author is or where and when the quote was derived from. Could easily be from my referee days which are now 11+ years prior. However...

    Todd's score, the way it was explained to me as I never saw the tape, just a snapshot of the final screen, proved he did it according to Todd based on what was seen. At the end of a roll-over the score the final digit reflects the roll-over count...that much we all know. My own ends in a "2" and someone else recently submitted one ending in a "4" from what I can tell, but there was something more in the pic that Todd provided that proved that the roll-over count went beyond "99" thus the "05" at the end. It's been too long and I cannot remember that detail, but it does exist as was seen in the pic that I was provided.

    Just wanted to clarify the statements attributed to me in that book. I was not the validating referee from back in the day, but Todd explained how his pic proved 100+ roll-overs which, at the time, and since another referee was responsible for watching the performance, I accepted as being verified, and the supplementary pic explained the nuance of the title.

    My own score...being "challenged" by "Snowflake"...is a mere fraction of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Thank you for the response. I want you to feel comfortable that despite any issues we have the scoreboard is paramount to me, in fact, isnt that what all our arguments have been over? My only concern here is accuracy of the scoreboard, and that concern sometimes gets heated. I fully understand me being the one to start the dispute against you could be viewed in a certain way but please rest assured I have no desire to pollute the scoreboard over anything personal, it would defeat the entire point of being here.

    Its interesting you reference that book as "real research", so then, for the record are you claiming quotes in that book are accurate? I didnt want to just trust that book, I preferred to trust your quotes here as people can be misquoted. Now though that you have called that book and its quotes on you "real research", thank you, I will now regard the other quotes in it you gave as accurate as well. A very interesting read.

    I'm aware the dates are incorrect, but you seem to be implying you did your score later and this of course would reconcile how you could not know the game yet still acheive the score which would of course negate the entire concern on this score. I just want to be crystal clear on this point though, are you claiming you did your score AFTER todd's? The exact date isnt relevant, but whether or not you did it AFTER todd as you are heavily implying here is key. If you're willing to explicitly state rather than just imply it that would be useful.


    RTM REPLY - I did some more checking, and the "Way Back Machine" (www.archive.org) has the lead pages to the old Snipercade site but clicking on the 2600 score section yields no results. I am reasonably certain that after I made a copy of the scores for upload into the TG database that Brien King shut it down completely at that point.

    I am reasonably certain that when I achieved the $2 billion I was aware that the final digit was reflective of the roll-over since no single point opportunity in the game results in a ones-digit. Todd's score in all probability came before my own and I just tried to see how I could do on a title that I had never tried before. Search my game rankings...I have well in excess of 200 or maybe 300 Atari 2600 registered submissions of varying ranking. That was when it was my personal goal to have a score for every available title for that platform, which I abandoned shortly after the Corcoran incident.

    The "Journey" score is one of many that I had submitted for that platform. While it is possible that my game was intentionally killed off after passing the $2B threshold but it is more likely that I got cocky and died. I only intentionally killed off a 2600 performance on limited occasions..."Demon Attack", "Circus Atari", "Commando" and of course "Space Jockey" all immediately come to mind but there could be more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    ... Todd's score in all probability came before my own.
    This statement that leaves things open ended is problematic for me. If you don't remember, I guess I'll accept that, none of us have perfect memories. But when you were bringing Todd's score into doubt you seemed pretty sure of your memory, also in the original quote here you were putting for the idea that you did it after Todd with no real disclaimer your memory could be wrong. If you're going to now say your memory is shaky on this, i accept that, none of our memories are perfect, but then I think its only fair that if you use a shaky memory in defense of your own scores its only fair that you make it equally known in your criticism of Todd's. I really dont think its fair that when Todd is against all odds we have quotes of yours thrown in which further hurt him, only to have you put your own quotes in question the moment they affect you. I woud like everyone to judged by the same standards, and any vagueness pulled up to benefit you is only fair that some vagueness be used to benefit todd as well. Same rules for everyone.
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    The book that the quotes appeared in...over the years (almost a decade, actually, from 2001 thru approx 2008) I gave a LOT of interviews both live, over-the-phone and via E-MAIL. I barely remember this one but don't discount it...or it could have been completely derived from a forum post. More likely, though, it was from an interview.

    Todd was not always with TG. Initially, late 1990's, Ron's "Snipercade" off-site scoreboard was something he maintained for TG, just as he maintained the Intellivision scoreboard. Just as Mark Longridge maintained MAME scores for TG on www.cubeman.org (though these are still visible there).

    Before Todd came onboard, I was personally banging away at the TG 2600 scoreboard. I even got a Player of the Year award from Walter/Ron in 2000 or 2001. But most of my scores that I had achieved at the time were shot down a rank when Todd's scores were added to Ron's list. I can't remember the date of his first submission to TG...it was not a single score but a whole bunch. Todd had multiple discussions with both Ron and Walter. It was not until later, when we were introduced to each other thru the TG forum, that I started speaking with Todd as a fellow gamer.

    The way I saw it at the time, he was clearly the better gamer as his own scores dwarfed by own save for a couple of titles that he never bothered to play such as "Room of Doom" (all my scores have since been beaten by Rodrigo BTW) and other less popular 2600 titles. A few 2600 scores I tried to better over the years as time permitted, but on this one, I just did not like the title enough to play it out for longer than that. It's like "Space Jockey"...I reached a certain point and if I was beat, so be it.

    Same for "Snoopy and the Red Baron"...I put up a low 100K+ score, Todd subsequently put up a million. I thought my score would have held the top spot, but I was clearly mistaken and due to the nuances of that particular game (wait too long when a level finished to start the next level and it will reset on you) I did not want to go thru that again as I lost my first recording attempt when I took too long to swap a tape at 2 hour speed and the game reset on me, so my next attempt was done at 6 hour speed which was enough to record a 100K game with a somewhat intentional score, but I had no intention of bothering to try for higher and another tape swap).
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    O... there was something more in the pic that Todd provided that proved that the roll-over count went beyond "99" thus the "05" at the end. It's been too long and I cannot remember that detail, but it does exist as was seen in the pic that I was provided.
    Supposedly, while all other digits go 0-9, the 10s column in particular resorts to other symbols. Intellivision often does that for the most significant digit. Tapper also does it for the level number ,its not unheard of. As a side note, I think its weird that for Todd the effort was made to figure out what that digit represents, but for intellivision a cap was given on anyone when the digits got into that territory. Regardless, that was the claim, and its possible. It will be interesting to see someone else get 100 rollover and observe what happens, i dont forsee that happening any time soon. Interesting none the less though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    This statement that leaves things open ended is problematic for me. If you don't remember, I guess I'll accept that, none of us have perfect memories. But when you were bringing Todd's score into doubt you seemed pretty sure of your memory, also in the original quote here you were putting for the idea that you did it after Todd with no real disclaimer your memory could be wrong. If you're going to now say your memory is shaky on this, i accept that, none of our memories are perfect, but then I think its only fair that if you use a shaky memory in defense of your own scores its only fair that you make it equally known in your criticism of Todd's. I really dont think its fair that when Todd is against all odds we have quotes of yours thrown in which further hurt him, only to have you put your own quotes in question the moment they affect you. I woud like everyone to judged by the same standards, and any vagueness pulled up to benefit you is only fair that some vagueness be used to benefit todd as well. Same rules for everyone.


    RTM REPLY - In all fairness, it is more likely that someone would remember a conversation regarding the proof of the first 100M score on the title rather than the details of a mediocre 4th place performance (although then it was likely 2nd place).

    Memories are stronger when it comes to scores that had something unique, interesting or exciting about them. I seriously doubt that I remember, for example, one moment from my own submission on Atari 2600 "Space Invaders" fast zig-zagging laser variation, but I sure as heck remember being unable to understand how during an Atari deca some players were scoring 15K when I was having problems getting half as much.

    While rules must apply equally to everyone, so must reasonableness. Asking me to describe how I achieved 1.135M on "Scramble" at Funspot in 2001, I will tell you that even 16 years later I remember my first ship lasted until 475-485K...you don't forget things like that. My second died in the mid-high 600K range, my 3rd ship took me past the 1M mark to around 1.055-1.085M range (that one I am less clear on but it was under 100K from where I died), and my final ship was the record.

    You remember specifics on exceptional performances and tend to be less clear on mediocre ones. That is not unusual in our hobby...it tends to be the norm, especially when you have 20+ years worth of personal and fellow gamer scores to keep track of.
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    For anyone that don't know. Between every level on this game the game will not start until you move the joystick. So you can take as many breaks as you wish.
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