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M.A.M.E. - Major Havoc Return to Vax - Major Havoc Return to Vax [Points [Marathon Settings]] - 2,061,434 - David Jury

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  1. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,090
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    I found the bug?

    Quote Originally Posted by redelf View Post
    I played back the inp and also got the same score around 1.6 million as it became out of sync. Not sure what is up but it looks like you might have to play this game again. Watched the youtube performance and wow you really have those levels down.
    So I think I figured out the problem. I just emailed Jason about this too.

    The roms that you find on the internet at the "usual places" don't seem to be the same as the ones on Jess Askey's site that I have been using (maybe an older version than 1.8). The ones I just downloaded from a popular rom site produce the exact same playback error you guys saw while the ones from Jess Askey's site do not (game ends at 1.6 million on a glitched out level with robots outside the maze walls).

    The very odd thing is that MAME sees no checksum difference and will playback either romset fine, but the one from the general rom sites has glitches that alter the playback sync it seems and the other does not (that I used for this submission).

    Using the same "bad" roms early last year I found that there was a glitched out level that I could not complete. You just ended up falling outside the maze and hitting invisible walls until your o2 runs out. Again the Jess Askey RTV roms from his site fix that too (v1.8).

    I ran into these problems early last year from the same sources, but after I downloaded the roms found on Jess Askey's site all those odd glitches went away :
    http://gamearchive.askey.org/Video_G...avoc_rom_3.zip
    http://gamearchive.askey.org/Video_G...voc_R_to_V.zip

    He even state son his website :

    Major Havoc: Return to Vax

    Well, I have been doing some hacking on this game now for about 8 years, it is a slow going project but I have added four new levels, made the game a bit easier, added speech support and done lots of little things. You can download the ROM's for my hacks so far....Version 1.8 they are always changing.


    Here are some comparison photos as well from my desktop :
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    As you can see the modified dates for the Emuparadise RTV roms are different than the ones from Jess Askey's site but everything else seems fine other than the packed size which should not matter.

    I don't know why MAME does not see a checksum difference, but if you DL Jess Askey's romsets from the links above everything should playback fine for everyone like I have seen on my end. You will also no longer see any of the odd glitches that the other rom sets floating aorund the interwebs have (again prob an older version of RTV with very slight changes MAME does not see somehow).

    I hope this helps. I did try to use the roms from the most trusted source. It's odd the other ones don't raise some error in MAME given the obvious playback difference that two other users and myself have confirmed. I bet they have the other romsets.

    Hopefully Jason will report back that the ones I sent him fixed things.
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  2. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 4,159
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    I just sent a very similar explanation to David in a separate email - it appears we both found the reason for the desync around the same time. We've come to the same conclusion, except for one point - I AM seeing checksum errors reported during MAME playback. Let me summarize what happened:

    The MAME developers support the ROM set for this game (mhavocrv), and have checksum values that MAME looks for when loading up this (and every) game. David, who knows the game very well, had been playing the original MAME-supported version and realized there are certain bugs that prevent levels from being completed, weird floating, etc. The game developer Jess Askey (quoted in David's post) sees the same things, and changes the ROMs to fix these problems. David uses these new ROMs and records his performance with them. When we play back the .inp using the MAME-supported ROMs, the playback desyncs - if we use the new ROMs, the performance plays back, however MAME reports the following:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The checksum errors are basically MAME saying that it doesn't support these ROMs - despite the fact they may still have bugs in them, the MAME devs are still looking for the original ROMs.

    What this means (from my perspective at least) is, unfortunately, the wrong ROM set was used for this track. This situation is similar to when a ROM set name has been changed in a later version of WolfMAME - the .inp may play back, but the ROMs are slightly different. In the interest of keeping a level playing field for other submitters, we have to all be using the same ROM set, and the original one where the checksum values are correct should be used (btw - David's previously accepted 1.86 million score on this track used that set). If the new ROMs have added levels, different difficulty, etc. as described in the quote from Jess Askey, then I would expect the MAME devs will end up tracking the new ROMs as a completely different set from "mhavocrv" (whenever they get around to it), and this would mean a separate track here at TG.

    As always, I'm interested in hearing other opinions, but for now I'm going to have to vote no.
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  3. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,090
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    More eureka but more questions...

    So after some more review on my own it seems that I used the slightly different roms that Jason, John and others have for my previous 1.8 million point submission here (I don't know what version these ones are still) :
    http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/175096

    Since then I must have downloaded the roms from Jess Askeys site and overwritten the ones I had from before. The most recent submission was done using those up to date 1.8 roms. I honestly did not remember that I made this change so sorry for the confusion. I have had a lot going on in my life and did not do much gaming for many months until recently so I did not know there was a problem until now.

    I don't know the version of the older roms other people like Jason and John have nor do I know how to tell. I also was unaware of these roms version differences floating around out there when i made this track that only specified you had to use the "mhavocrv" romset without any version attached to it (most roms are a final version unlike this WIP that is not done yet).

    The most recent ones are the V1.8 roms from Jess Askeys site that this current submission was done on. Since Jess made it clear that there will be a different final version in the not to distant future I'd say this track is at it's end for now either way and I will make a new track for the "final" version when it is done.

    I am not sure how you all will adjudiucate this odd situation with a WIP rom and a track that only specifies the rom name. To me it would make sense to note this track as V1.8 for now since it is the current most recent version that this submission was made on with the correct rom name (with TG's help).

    But it's up to you guys (and feel free to bring up more issues than these) :

    Do we keep this current submission on the most recent romset that we will lock in and note that it is for V1.8 roms only?

    Do we dispute and get rid of the older submission on what appears to be an older unknown rom verson that is the more common one found online that most people had last time?

    I won't be too busted up about whatever you all decide is best since my focus now is looking forward to the final version of Return to Vax in the near future.

    Again sorry for any confusion but it should lead to some interesting adjudication discussion I hope :)
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    No worries, David, this has been an interesting brain teaser :)

    My two cents - WolfMAME is a requirement for any submission, so let's keep that in mind. As far as MAME is concerned, there is only one ROM for this game, and it is the original. You used this original ROM when you submitted your 1.86 million score (I performed the analysis and can verify this), and it was rightfully accepted for this track - I say that score should remain, and anyone else choosing to submit to this track should use the original ROM. The 2 million score in this submission was made using an unsupported ROM (as far as MAME is concerned), and should therefore be rejected. When they are done tweaking the game and have a final version released (i.e. the ROM won't constantly be changing), start a new track specifying that ROM to be used for submissions.
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  5. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,090
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    with all due respect...

    I just want to add that I am not sure that the other rom was "original" or not either. Jess Askey has been updating these WIP roms for some time now apparently so I don't know where my previous submission and the rom I used fits in to that history. MAME never made any notes of the rom version changes from what I can see other than adjusting the checksum (or not in this case).

    Ultimately, I would not have made a track for this game if I had know there were different version around at the time, that those versions may have changed more than once since the "original" release (unknown at time of track creation), and that a different final version was still in the works.

    Now that we do know all of that do we really want to say the last rom and submission was the original ignoring the current WIP version I just used for this game (and one that does not have all the obvious bugs that older romset had)?

    I will try to ask Jess if he has any kind of version history but I think that's a moot point too given the final version around the corner.

    I respect your point of view Jason but to me the older submission on the buggy romset is the one that should go if any does then have TG note that the track was for the V1.8 romset which is the most recent until we get the final version someday.

    I am also fine just grandfathering or getting rid of this track all together because the final version is all that will matter historically speaking.

    I am glad we found the problem. we also get to play a new version of Major Havoc Return to Vax soon that I may even have a hand in play testing/helping with level design so it's a win for the community in that respect I think. I am not worried about my points/standing on an unfinished game I am the only one submitting on.

    Again sorry for the confusion and that's enough about that...whew!
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  6. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,090
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    Quote Originally Posted by redelf View Post
    This sounds awesome. Here is even more good news. There is someone working on a FPGA for Tempest and Major Havoc. MJ will be able to be run on a vertical monitor as well. So maybe these two parties need to get hooked up together and do some magic for all of us.

    The FPGA board is in a working condition as of this post, I believe he is still working out a couple of bugs and doing some revisions, also it can play Omega Race too.
    Sorry...I meant to say Scott Swazey... not Steve Sander....is that your FPGA guy?
  7. VERIFIED FORUM RESTRICTED Credibility: 26,767
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    David Jury Question ASAP
    1. Will you be Canceling this Video Game Submission Me and other Twin Galaxy Members would Like to Know so we Can Change our Vote?
    I Voted Yes but Because of the Issue with the ROM's I un voted
  8. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 4,159
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerky View Post
    Now that we do know all of that do we really want to say the last rom and submission was the original ignoring the current WIP version I just used for this game (and one that does not have all the obvious bugs that older romset had)?

    I respect your point of view Jason but to me the older submission on the buggy romset is the one that should go if any does then have TG note that the track was for the V1.8 romset which is the most recent until we get the final version someday.
    We're starting to go in circles, so I'll try to wrap this up as clearly as I can. Me calling it the "original" ROM is probably not a great idea because you're right, it may not have been the first version Jess put out of the game. When I say original, I mean the ROM version that MAME originally supported, which is what you used for your first submission - this may not have been "version 1.0" if you ask Jess.

    I also want to be clear that the MAME-supported version (which I was calling the original) is not a matter of "my point of view" - it is a distinct fact that the MAME-supported version will report no checksum errors when you run it in WolfMAME, while the version you used for this recording lists the errors I showed in the screen shot above. It is a TG requirement to use WolfMAME for submissions, and the ROM set name to use is listed in the rules - therefore, we HAVE to use the one supported by MAME, we have no choice. It doesn't matter whether there is a later version of the ROM that is less buggy or more playable, that makes it a different ROM than what was used originally for the track (regardless of whether the name of the ROM is the same), and someone submitting using the new one is not playing the same game as someone using the old one. I agree that a more playable, less buggy ROM is what we SHOULD be using (a final version, not one constantly being tweaked), but since there is already an accepted score on this "buggy" track, a new track will have to be created - I don't think we can dispute a valid score that followed all the track rules just because the track was created before it should have been.
  9. VERIFIED Senior Member Credibility: 2,090
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    It turns out that this game is not in its final form which is information that has only been confirmed today.

    We are also now not even sure what rom version was used in my previous submission other than it matches the checksum in MAME and the most current one from Jess Askey V1.8 does not (yet).

    Whether they eventually change the rom name or not because of that is immaterial I think because having two tracks for two different rom versions an unfinished game real doesn't make sense. They may even use the same rom name for the final version for all we know.

    In light of this and to avoid any further confusion I think it's best for me to just to cancel this submission. I'm happy with these final version practice sessions either way, although I do prefer the less buggy submission myself ;)

    I will also ask TG to remove the current track and older score all together since I did not know there would be any changes when I created it and the track itself just specifies the rom name not version which will just create more confusion for others. I am happy to make a brand new track when the time comes irregardless of this WIP conundrum.

    I won't cancel this for at least 24 hours to make sure anyone who has voted can make changes so they don't lose any points/cred. If you think I need to give more time just let me know.

    Now let's all look forward to the final version of Major Havoc Return to Vax :)
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    Cant Wait to See you Play the Final Version Major Havoc Return to Vax
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