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Commodore 64 - Tapper - NTSC - Points - 512,875 - Brendon Weaver

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  1. Commodore 64 - Tapper - NTSC - Points - 512,875 - Brendon Weaver

    02-12-2018, 05:22 PM
    #1


    NTSC - Points
    Score Track//www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=2566
    RulesThis is Sega's cartridge version of the game.
    Difficulty = Beginner
    Submission MessageSetup in the beginning. Run begins at around 1:35 and goes until the end of the video. Thanks for watching!
  2. 02-12-2018, 07:48 PM
    #2
    Accepted. Congratulations on a new record! You more than doubled the previous NTSC mark!
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  3. 02-12-2018, 08:14 PM
    #3
    Great job...............Accepted!
    ​"cred-jacked" ™ RaGe © 2017 The RaGe Corp. LLC
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  4. Tapper

    02-13-2018, 04:05 AM
    #4
    Thanks! I was hoping for more, but I am happy with the end result. Thanks for watching!
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  5. 02-13-2018, 11:58 AM
    #5
    Unfortunately, this gameplay bears the three hallmarks of unacceptable point leeching:-

    1. No time pressure
    2. Unlimited bonuses available
    3. It is easy to stagnate on one level, avoiding the greater challenge of the next level.

    These three things make the method sustainable indefinitely. While it is an enjoyable spectacle, this is not competitive gaming.

    I understand that the player discovered this leeching method inadvertently, but that does not make it acceptable. Anyone could do it debliberately, and more extensively.

    Mr Weaver is not a cheater, just unlucky.
  6. 02-13-2018, 01:03 PM
    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock View Post
    Unfortunately, this gameplay bears the three hallmarks of unacceptable point leeching:-

    1. No time pressure
    2. Unlimited bonuses available
    3. It is easy to stagnate on one level, avoiding the greater challenge of the next level.

    These three things make the method sustainable indefinitely. While it is an enjoyable spectacle, this is not competitive gaming.

    I understand that the player discovered this leeching method inadvertently, but that does not make it acceptable. Anyone could do it debliberately, and more extensively.

    Mr Weaver is not a cheater, just unlucky.
    I respectfully disagree with your entire assessment.

    1. While there is no clock, there certainly is a time pressure. As I was able to clear the early boards easily, the later stages are difficult to clear. If you watched the whole video, I am constantly trying to clear a board throughout my whole game. I am consistently moving tapper up and down, throwing out drinks and collecting mugs. I even show frustration not being able to clear a level numerous times.

    2. The rules state that the game was to be played on easy difficulty. So the bonuses are a result of the rules. As long as your scoring points, why aren't the life bonuses allowed that I earned? The bonuses are not unlimited. You only get bonuses if you score points.

    3. You cannot stagnate on a level without being penalized. The patrons move more quickly and the mugs get thrown back faster. If I really wanted to stagnate, I would have done it consistently on the lower levels. Although you say I'm "leeching," the later levels really are more difficult. It really is just a matter of too many patrons, which takes more time to clear it. So many times I'm about to clear a stage, and patron just pops in the bar for one more drink.

    And as far as saying anyone could do this indefinitely, that's disingenuous. You can see me giving up lives quickly towards the end due to mental and physical fatigue. So no, you cannot do this indefinitely.
  7. 02-13-2018, 01:46 PM
    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bweyedoc View Post
    1. While there is no clock, there certainly is a time pressure. As I was able to clear the early boards easily, the later stages are difficult to clear. If you watched the whole video, I am constantly trying to clear a board throughout my whole game. I am consistently moving tapper up and down, throwing out drinks and collecting mugs. I even show frustration not being able to clear a level numerous times.
    You were not able to clear certain levels because you did not effectively combine the two main tasks of serving drinks and collecting mugs. Your tendency was to stop serving for extended periods, while working out how best to collect. This caused the customers to advance across most of the bar, which leads to more customers' appearing behind them, prolonging the stage. Your frustration about this is real, but irrelevant. The point is that a better player than yourself could deliberately prolong a stage in this way, and would not be restricted by any time limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by bweyedoc View Post
    2. The rules state that the game was to be played on easy difficulty. So the bonuses are a result of the rules. As long as your scoring points, why aren't the life bonuses allowed that I earned? The bonuses are not unlimited. You only get bonuses if you score points.
    Bonuses occur every 10,000 points, regardless of total score, and are therefore unlimited. You were easily able to score over 10,000 points, every time you repeated a level, thereby replacing your lost men. That is exploitation of unlimited bonuses, something a sufficiently practised player could do to endlessly accumulate points.

    Quote Originally Posted by bweyedoc View Post
    3. You cannot stagnate on a level without being penalized. The patrons move more quickly and the mugs get thrown back faster. If I really wanted to stagnate, I would have done it consistently on the lower levels. Although you say I'm "leeching," the later levels really are more difficult. It really is just a matter of too many patrons, which takes more time to clear it. So many times I'm about to clear a stage, and patron just pops in the bar for one more drink.
    You played a single level, several times, and I observed no penalty. The level restarted at the same difficulty level, giving the same opportunities to score more points and make more bonus men.

    Quote Originally Posted by bweyedoc View Post
    And as far as saying anyone could do this indefinitely, that's disingenuous. You can see me giving up lives quickly towards the end due to mental and physical fatigue. So no, you cannot do this indefinitely.
    Your personal limits are not applicable to everyone who plays this game, and who could use this leeching method. You may not be able to do it for a million points, but someone else possibly could. What must be considered is the method, not how you can use or have used it. The method is indefinitely sustainable. I am not trying to deceive anyone about its indefinite sustainability, because it is common sense to assume that I am not speaking literally. No one is indefatigable or immortal, so the method is indefinitely sustainable, in theory. That is enough to make its use unacceptable; there is no need for you to actually do it for all eternity.
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  8. 02-13-2018, 02:33 PM
    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock View Post
    You were not able to clear certain levels because you did not effectively combine the two main tasks of serving drinks and collecting mugs. Your tendency was to stop serving for extended periods, while working out how best to collect. This caused the customers to advance across most of the bar, which leads to more customers' appearing behind them, prolonging the stage. Your frustration about this is real, but irrelevant. The point is that a better player than yourself could deliberately prolong a stage in this way, and would not be restricted by any time limit.



    Bonuses occur every 10,000 points, regardless of total score, and are therefore unlimited. You were easily able to score over 10,000 points, every time you repeated a level, thereby replacing your lost men. That is exploitation of unlimited bonuses, something a sufficiently practised player could do to endlessly accumulate points.



    You played a single level, several times, and I observed no penalty. The level restarted at the same difficulty level, giving the same opportunities to score more points and make more bonus men.



    Your personal limits are not applicable to everyone who plays this game, and who could use this leeching method. You may not be able to do it for a million points, but someone else possibly could. What must be considered is the method, not how you can use or have used it. The method is indefinitely sustainable. I am not trying to deceive anyone about its indefinite sustainability, because it is common sense to assume that I am not speaking literally. No one is indefatigable or immortal, so the method is indefinitely sustainable, in theory. That is enough to make its use unacceptable; there is no need for you to actually do it for all eternity.
    Your first paragraph is the essence of Tapper. Managing the patrons by serving them drinks while collecting the empty mugs if you are not able to push them out the door. Saying I didn't do this "effectively," is just your critique on how I played the game. Although my goal in the game is to get all patrons out of the door, my primary goals to prevent loss of life are 1) preventing a mug from dropping and 2) preventing a patron from reaching the end of the bar to throw me across it. If I don't do those two things, I lose a life. So, I emphasized collecting mugs more than serving patrons at times because the mugs move faster than the patrons.

    At 3:50 I say I wonder if you even need to progress through the game to get points, and then around 5:05 I realize that a level speeds up with the empty mugs and patrons if you don't clear it. So, if you don't clear a level, the level does get more difficult. The penalty is visible, so it is beneficial to keep progressing through the levels.

    Later stages start with more patrons than earlier levels, so the difficulty does increase.

    Again, THE RULES stated beginner. If it was Arcade or Expert difficulty, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, but there was no track for making a record under those circumstances. The beginner difficulty allowed me to gain bonuses by just playing the game. I think part of the issue is you believe the bonuses were too generous.

    I know where you are coming from, but there are time penalties in the form of faster empty mugs and patrons, and increased number of patrons on later levels. So, if I try to clear mugs first or try for a tip to bring entertainment to distract the mob of patrons, that's just part of the gameplay.
  9. 02-13-2018, 11:54 PM
    #9
    I can't tell if you're genuinely missing my point, so I'll leave this argument as it is, and wait for the outcome of this submission.

    Should it be accepted, you would have by far the highest score on the board.

    Are you that much better than the other players, or did you engage in point leeching?

    If ever someone takes down your high score, by doing one level over and over and over, you may come to a better understanding of what I've tried to explain.
  10. 02-14-2018, 12:05 AM
    #10
    Great submission, accepted.
    john m brissie
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