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Foot0fGod
04-28-2020 at 10:00 AM
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Can we open a discussion about Krogman's Galaga Marathon score?

If this already exists, please redirect me to it.

This is about Stephen Krogman's long-standing (until recently) 15,999,990 score. I obviously *can't* dispute it and am not at this point suggesting someone *should,* but I know it is a score of great controversy within the community.

On one hand, Krogman was an excellent player and such a feat is not outside the realms of possibility. It really hasn't ever been, as Marathon is just a matter of having that "day" where your stamina is good and your mind doesn't wander. Many people are surprised it's not even higher, pushing the bounds of how long one can stay awake.

On the other hand, the score itself is suspect. The odds by chance of ending with such a precise proximity to an even number is small, and it brings up memories of the fake 20M exact fast fire record. Surface similarity, maybe. I have literally never seen a serious round end within ten points if a million and that doesn't mean it's not possible, just... very unlikely. The other explanation is that the round was, for some reason, ended intentionally at this point and I find that equally hard to just swallow.

Furthermore, this is a score that, to my knowledge, was referee-only, and I know neither who that referee (s) was nor of any other evidence. I'm younger and newer. I grew into the gaming community as the tale of KoK, Mitchell, and Todd Rogers was coming to a head. I know most referee scores are valid, but I have a particular bias towards "referee-only" scores of that area that were leaps and bounds above the pack.

My other concern is that, while Krogman has not played arcade seriously in a time, he has put up MAME records and they are just severely short of what someone should be able to do. Again, you can claim rustiness, some people really do "lose it," especially for stamina. But it's another one of those things that, add to everything else, itches my brain.

So I want to learn what I can learn about what we really know about this score and what the community thinks about this topic. Is it legit? Is there other evidence? Is it even a topic worth exploring?

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  1. Snowflake's Avatar

    rounding always concerns. not to shame anyone, so no names mentioned, but there was actually heated debate that when a score was PROVEN fake we should just round it into a possible score. That mindset certainly concerned as to what other rounding may have happened back in the day and of course its harder to challegne something based on rounding if rounding was somehow viewed as ok

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  2. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    rounding always concerns. not to shame anyone, so no names mentioned, but there was actually heated debate that when a score was PROVEN fake we should just round it into a possible score. That mindset certainly concerned as to what other rounding may have happened back in the day and of course its harder to challegne something based on rounding if rounding was somehow viewed as ok


    You do not have to even mention the name. Most already KNOW who you are referring to!!!

    (OH, here is your "corrupt like")

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  3. Foot0fGod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    rounding always concerns. not to shame anyone, so no names mentioned, but there was actually heated debate that when a score was PROVEN fake we should just round it into a possible score. That mindset certainly concerned as to what other rounding may have happened back in the day and of course its harder to challegne something based on rounding if rounding was somehow viewed as ok

    Right? Why on Earth would someone round a score like this? Are we supposed to believe "oh, I tripped and unplugged the game before me or the referee even wrote it down or committed it to short-term memory" or something?? My personal theory was always "maybe this was before they knew about the player 2 glitch to count above a million, so it maxed at 999,990 (~1 in 9 chance) and they just counted the rollovers... but that not very good either. A) there are plenty of scores above 1 million, including predating, none look like this B) you'd still know the exact remainder to add to 999,990 to give you an exact score! Nothing passes the sniff test.

    Edit: more to the point, why not just go with the next valid score down, since we know that was "possible back in the day" for sure? 😂

    Updated 04-28-2020 at 12:12 PM by Foot0fGod
  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    hah its funny you mentioned that. theres another story of pretty much jsut that happening , the machine went down, so they went with the last score they remembered seeing.

    you're starting to see why its so hard to dispute things when so many weird things were allowed. you cant remove it if its at all possible that it was ok by the rules of the time

  5. Foot0fGod's Avatar

    It seems like the standard used to be "my friend watched me, don't worry, and oh, even though we're representing ourselves as international authorities, we weren't paying enough attention to really report any details lol." So I guess, in a way, *every* score of back in the day is valid without damning "this is impossible" proof. Because it used to just be okay to make stuff up 😂

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  6. The Evener's Avatar

    I was surprised to see Krogman's name on the scoreboard - I guess I got him mixed up with Ron Corcoran.

    Krogman's 15,999,990 Galaga score from 1989 is not cited in the First Edition (1998) of the Twin Galaxies Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records. However, Krogman is feted at the TG Coronation Day Event in January 2000 at Funspot:

    http://tips.retrogames.com/gallery/stephenk.html

    Of course, TG wasn't around in 1989 so this score wasn't originally adjudicated by the organization. And since the score didn't appear in the book circa 1998, it seems that Krogman appeared on the TG scene shortly after it was published and apparently had the score entered onto the scoreboard. There must be more to the story known to Galaga experts - it would be great to hear more details surrounding the 15,999,990 score as I couldn't find any accounts from Krogman on-line.


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  7. The Evener's Avatar

    Okay, found some more contextual info at the Internet Archive from TG's site circa 1999:

    15,999,990 Stephen Krogman, Grand Prix Race-O-Rama, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 6/1/89
    (Over 1,250 stages/9 Hours)

    https://web.archive.org/web/20000929092117/https://www.twingalaxies.com/VIDEO_GAME_HIGH_SCORES_A-L.html


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  8. The Evener's Avatar

    More general background from a TG 1999 press release about Krogman on Arkanoid:

    http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0010Hb


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  9. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    Of course, TG wasn't around in 1989 so this score wasn't originally adjudicated by the organization.



    TG was founded in 1981. (See the info page)

    1989 was the era just before the "corrupt dinosaur referees" started to hatch out of their eggs.


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  10. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade



    TG was founded in 1981. (See the info page)

    1989 was the era just before the "corrupt dinosaur referees" started to hatch out of their eggs.


    photo evidence of TG refs

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  11. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade

    TG was founded in 1981. (See the info page)

    1989 was the era just before the "corrupt dinosaur referees" started to hatch out of their eggs.

    We might be saying the same thing, but my understanding is that TG basically folded in 1986-87; the scoreboard was purchased and/or taken over by Steve Harris, who used the original TGIS as the basis for the Amusement Players' Association scoreboard, which then morphed into the US National Video Game scoreboard in the early 90s as far as I can tell. During that time, Walter basically walked away from anything to do with video games, but with the mainstream growth of the Internet and a growing interest in classic games with 20s-30s something Gen-Xers, TG came back on-line as an entity.

  12. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    I openly state that the score is obviously fake.

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  13. Foot0fGod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock

    I openly state that the score is obviously fake.


    I mean... I can't see it any other way. Wasn't he one of the judges who adjudicated some of Todd Roger's impossible scores? I've heard/read that, but I'm not sure if it's accurate.

  14. Snowflake's Avatar

    i wasnt aware of krogman being a referree. i think you're confusing him with ron corcoran though i could be wrong

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  15. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Back in the '80s, killing off your Galaga game at 999,990 points was a thing. I'm sure I don't need to explain why.

    The score we're talking about is 999,990 plus another 15 million. A blatantly bogus score.

    If the score were genuine, there would be a story about why he chose not to break the scoreboard a sixteenth time, probably including some details of how he managed to get that particular score. There isn't, because the score is fake.

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  16. Foot0fGod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    i wasnt aware of krogman being a referree. i think you're confusing him with ron corcoran though i could be wrong

    Ok, so please take this with a grain of salt. I ran into this thread that mentioned it when I was looking through Rogers stuff and it mentions Corcoran and Krogman. Again, these are random words from people on the internet. But this is where I got the notion:

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/todd-rogers-supposed-king-of-video-games-records-are-bogus.18664/page-2

  17. The Evener's Avatar

    I came across a May 1998 snapshot of the TG website for the page "Arcade Video Game Scores - Can you beat these scores?" There are 20 arcade scores attached to Krogman going back as far as 1984, with others achieved in 1987, 1989, and 1994-1997. The 20 Krogman scores do not include his 1989 Galaga score. The earliest snapshot of this page dates from Feb 1998

    https://web.archive.org/web/19980512093912/https://twingalaxies.com/vidscore.HTML

    Another interesting aspect of TG back then - scores were also posted to a "challenge page" (see near bottom of the score list) -- "Before final acceptance, all scores must be viewed by the public and survive any objections any other player may have."

    UPDATE: i found a page devoted to Krogman's Galaga score, so the earliest reference i could find to it at TG is from Feb 1998

    https://web.archive.org/web/19980512120751/https://twingalaxies.com/krogvid.html


    Updated 04-28-2020 at 06:18 PM by The Evener
  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot0fGod


    Ok, so please take this with a grain of salt. I ran into this thread that mentioned it when I was looking through Rogers stuff and it mentions Corcoran and Krogman. Again, these are random words from people on the internet. But this is where I got the notion:

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/todd-rogers-supposed-king-of-video-games-records-are-bogus.18664/page-2

    i didnt read the whole thread tried to find what you were talking about on krogaman

    if you meant something else please elaborate. but you can see here this guy is saying krogman wasnt a ref or at least wasnt the ref in question soeone else is talking about

    the only link i can think to todd, is during the dispute, todd was at an event playing dragster. i dont know his score at the event but i know it wasnt 5.54 or 5.51 or anything like that. krogman just straight up lied and said he witnessed todd get 5.57 that weekend -- which would matter cause even 5.54 would prove the analysis wrong. even todd himself denied doing a 5.54 that weekend.

    krogman's just a straight up liar, my only interaction with him was him berating me for not joining a stream where his cheating friends explains his cheating. sends me an emial asking me to watch his friends explanation after getting caught then sometime later berated me for not heraing the cheater out --note the cheater didnt deny cheating, just he and krogman thought me and others should hear why he did it lol

    i would also point out all that said, when krogman was banned i suggested he should be allow to submit scores, he just shouldnt be allowed to comment/email/ or go to tg events. we should never allow moral judgement to intefere with judging the validity of scores

  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    i'm finding myself considering disputing this. this isnt nearly the evidence TG would have required at one point. however, its reasonable questions and now that we know just how many fake scores were once up it justifies more scrutiny of all scores. we also now have the "inactive dispute" status to help alleviate peoples objection that disputes are offensive

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  20. The Evener's Avatar

    just a note that I edited my earlier post to include the following - wanted to flag it for snowflake in case he missed it

    UPDATE: i found a page devoted to Krogman's Galaga score, so the earliest reference i could find to it at TG is from Feb 1998

    https://web.archive.org/web/19980512120751/https://twingalaxies.com/krogvid.html

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