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80sArcadeKid
03-01-2021 at 04:22 PM
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Should all submissions show a person playing the game?

I must have an underlying trust issue.

I'm pretty new here so I have probably missed a broader conversation around this but I have a personal gripe with this on all submissions that are just screen gameplay. This includes any videos of screen gameplay where you don't either hear the persons voice/controller or see the person controlling the game at some point in the video, and at least the whole game playback in the same video.

M.A.M.E. inps submissions are the worst in my opinion, probably because I know very little about how hard or easy the inp files are to manipulate/splice etc. AND you never know who actually played the game.

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  1. Alantheace's Avatar

    i find that an interesting point, i wish i had a much better set up to include myself. but surely extra movement in the room would be easy to listen out for on marathon records... i try to be heard, either by tutting, swearing or moaning....i think good old fashion trust is the key...

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  2. datagod's Avatar

    I like providing as much information as possible. I have a couple of mame submissions that show me playing the game in addition to the INP's being provided. The funny thing with that is somebody watched me playing and said "damn dude, blink!". I noticed that I wasn't blinking at all during the game. Kinda creepy!

    It is ultimately up to the adjudicators themselves to determine how much evidence is required. We are free to accept, reject, or abstain. You can comment in the adjudication thread and explain your reasons. We are all here to learn, to get scores, and to have fun.



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  3. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    I blink very little during Tetris runs. And I have to stand up so I can lean into the TV from time to time when it gets intense. My eyes and my back are starting to complain.

    When I do direct capture evidence (which is rare but I'm working out the bugs with a new device I have) I always show an inset webcam shot of the console being powered on where you can see the live TV in the room as well as see the direct feed pop on. And then I put the controller to the webcam when I'm starting the game or selecting options or whatever so you can see the controller inputs match the gameplay.

    It's totally best to have everything visible all the time. For MAME submissions I get your drift. When I record a video of the INP playback I turn on Input View so you can actually see what controller inputs are registering during the performance. No it's not iron-clad by any means but I believe that to be a simple step that more people could take to display just how they're controlling the game during the performance.

    Also I sneak MAME runs in at work when it's slow and I'm definitely not filming the inside of my workplace while I do that.

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  4. NightmareJames's Avatar

    I prefer not to be shown during my runs. I am not exactly very good looking and I don't want to be displayed at all. I don't mind commentating or even showing console, but showing my face is completely out of question.

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  5. 80sArcadeKid's Avatar

    it doesn’t have to be a face. It can be hands on the controller, back of head or even voice and sound of controller being used. It’s mainly direct capture and MAME playback.

    Obviously I have built trust in certain people over time and multiple submissions. What triggered the wall post was a recent submission of Chase HQ from a player I’d never seen before which had only an inp attached, not even a playback video and a submission message of “good run” or something to the like. No care taken to present an evidence package then no response to requests for a video so an adjudicator made one for from the inp for the submission.

    This made me think, hell you could get any old inp online, say you recorded it “a while back” and post it as a submission.

    The point really is validation of the player creating the performance.

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  6. 80sArcadeKid's Avatar

    By the way, that Chase HQ submission was accepted before I had a response to my query about 3rd party adjudicators submitting a playback video on the submitters behalf. Particularly when no response or request for it came from the submitter.

    So it got accepted before my vote could be lodged. which is fine. I just thought it odd how quickly adjudicators accepted a WR submission with a less than ideal evidence package from the submitter.

  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    for track n field you'll find people agree. when so much of the skill comes from rapid fire and how easy it is to cheat rapid fire, hands must be shown for that. the arcade rules explciilty require it, the mame rules dont but individuals have.

    for super easy marathons, such as atari asteroids, i suppose it would be easy to have players take turns and that would be a problem. maybe for easy endurance marathons we should consider adding such a rule. the person who hold the asteroids marathon before me i know get some complaints for that, but that was more about him complaining about todds 100 hour marathon and benig hit with "oh yeah what about your 30 hour one". even still.

    in general though, showing the person wont much matter. you can tell by gameplay if its legit. theres also the history of it used to be vhs direct feed. and direct feed has some advantages as well.

    you're not gonna get the rule changed across the board, but yes, in special cases arguments can be made about the need to see the person.

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  8. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    I don't think such a rule should or could be enforced. Direct capture has been accepted for decades and yes, when somebody shows themselves playing it increases the trust of the adjudicators but it would be much more difficult for people to do this and the participation and score submissions would decrease significantly.

    In my case I'm always listening to something else while playing, like a radio show, a cartoon or something like that, I also smoke so I ocasionally cough as well, my stupid neighbor's dogs are constantly barking, so recording all that would result in an annoying video that I wouldn't like to preserv in the archives just to get a Guitar Hero score that nobody cares about.

    Besides if I want to record with a handheld camera I have to use my cellphone then connect my cellphone to my PC, transfer the video and then upload it, as opposed to using my direct capture device which records directly to my computer and then I just upload it from there. Also you say we don't know who is really playing, but to be sure that the person submitting the score is the one playing you would have to ask to show their faces, not only hands and then I suppose you would have to ask in advance for some kind of official ID to make sure that's really the person who opened the account. All of this would result in people just giving up on submitting scores here, I know I would.

    Like others mentioned, some games already required the gamer showing their hands like Track n Field and Wii Bowling but to ask this for every game is just not a good idea. Some of my consoles and/or games do not work with my direct capture device so I ocasionally use my cellphone to record and I alwasy make sure to show my console and controller when I do this, but this process takes more thime and that's why I avoid games that don't work with my device. You can check all of my Super Mario Kart submissions that were recorded with cellphone where I try to show as much evidence as possible if that would increase your trust in my submissions.

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  9. OOO's Avatar

    Should all submissions show a person playing the game?

    I must have an underlying trust issue.

    I'm pretty new here so I have probably missed a broader conversation around this but I have a personal gripe with this on all submissions that are just screen gameplay. This includes any videos of screen gameplay where you don't either hear the persons voice/controller or see the person controlling the game at some point in the video, and at least the whole game playback in the same video.

    M.A.M.E. inps submissions are the worst in my opinion, probably because I know very little about how hard or easy the inp files are to manipulate/splice etc. AND you never know who actually played the game.

    For Twin Galaxies submissions, it should be mandatory recorded "live" performances, no playbacks, for all platforms. This is already happening for all platforms, except MAME. Ever watch just the tennis ball move on a court, without seeing the players? It's great and important to see Roger Federer move to the ball and make the play, or Tom Brady clutch on the throw, for all world records. It's 2021 now, tech is here, TG has the setup, and Speedrun and others have all gamers on view for performance. We come to see the players as well as the game play. And we need to have authentic no cheat performances. The MAME submission process at TG needs to be improved as above, and added "see player face, game settings, bootup, and hands on controls" for all submissions is an important and necessary improvement of authenticity and viewership.

    Please remember, this was "legit" ... former world champion, ex TG referee and other long term TG member all said it's OK ... and with the above improvement, it would not have been "legit" ... https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/147531-M-A-M-E-Galaga-Namco-rev-B-Points-Marathon-20-000-000-Jose-Ramis

    Also the current DK dispute ... no video of hands on controls while playing the game. Yes, not a requirement of the time, however this topic is about the future authenticity and improvement of video gaming.

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  10. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO

    Speedrun and others have all gamers on view for performance.

    This is not true, only for certain games and certain scores do speedrun require the player showing themselves and the controllers, for example for Super Mario Bros, only performances under 5 minutes need to show the player, otherwise you don't need to do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by OOO

    We come to see the players as well as the game play.

    I don't, I'm interested in the scores more than the actual person, yes it is a nice bonus to see the player playing the game but I don't mind a feceless score either. Almighty Dreadlock doesn't even have a profile pic and I enjoy his submissions as much as any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO


    The MAME submission process at TG needs to be improved as above, and added "see player face, game settings, bootup, and hands on controls" for all submissions is an important and necessary improvement of authenticity and viewership.

    If M.A.M.E. players agree to add this rule I wouldn't mind, since I rarely play that platform, but if this rule were to be added for all platforms, that would be the last day I would submit anything to this site.

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  11. RMacauley's Avatar

    So in this ideal world of fully videoed submission evidence potentially we're looking at 3-4 cameras minimum. One showing the player's face and also hands on the controller in the same shot otherwise one for the player and one for the hands, one from over the shoulder showing the player and the screen proving that the player is actually the one playing and one more camera close enough to show the gameplay on screen clearly. Add to that an inp file for MAME and possibly a recording using OBS or similar adds up to a hell of a lot to ask unless you're going all out for the world record. No point jumping through all those hoops otherwise in my opinion.


    Also I remember hearing a rumor a long time ago that Walter Day once disqualified a video submission for profanity because the player muttered "s..t" when losing a life. Not sure if that's true or not but I do know that people adjudicating would not want to hear me when a run goes pear shaped. It's definitely NSFW.

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  12. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    If you want to 100% eliminate any possibility of cheating then yes OOO is right. If you want to foster a community of competition and participation then he is wrong. The middle ground is super simple - vote on what you feel confident voting on. It really is that simple. Submission video doesn't meet your standards? Totally cool you can abstain and even vote no if you want, but don't cry when people vote to accept it. The beauty of TGSAP and the dispute process is that its an ever-standing body of evidence for review. If you wish to have a healthy body of participants you can't make everyone do everything all the time. It's not reasonable. Sufficient proof is sufficient. Exhaustive proof is great but it is more than sufficient.

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  13. 80sArcadeKid's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

    If you want to 100% eliminate any possibility of cheating then yes OOO is right. If you want to foster a community of competition and participation then he is wrong. The middle ground is super simple - vote on what you feel confident voting on. It really is that simple. Submission video doesn't meet your standards? Totally cool you can abstain and even vote no if you want, but don't cry when people vote to accept it. The beauty of TGSAP and the dispute process is that its an ever-standing body of evidence for review. If you wish to have a healthy body of participants you can't make everyone do everything all the time. It's not reasonable. Sufficient proof is sufficient. Exhaustive proof is great but it is more than sufficient.

    If you read my original post, you could do it with one camera. Probably your phone tbh. You don't need to show your face, just evidence you actually PLAYED the game.

  14. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    I read your original post. It seems you didn't read mine although you quoted it. Vote on what you feel comfortable voting on. Don't force your opinions on everyone like its law. Simple simple stuff here people

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  15. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

    I read your original post. It seems you didn't read mine although you quoted it. Vote on what you feel comfortable voting on. Don't force your opinions on everyone like its law. Simple simple stuff here people

    I don't think is he's forcing anything on players, this is just an honest concern and opinion of a relatively new member.

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  16. 80sArcadeKid's Avatar

    Read more of the replies, jumped in a bit quick. This is exactly the conversation I was after, I want to hear others point of view.

    It boils down to validating the person is playing the game and not someone else's performance, however you do it. As suggested this is up to the adjudicators to decide.

    I'm just up front a suspicious person when I see 'SUPER HUMAN' submissions that don't show the player, until I get 'my' sufficient evidence to prove otherwise., I always abstain until I'm satisfied one way or the other.

    There are lots of player I trust with just direct capture, through time on this board, but it had to be built up, at first I was super suspicious on why you would want to hide the fact you were playing.


  17. 80sArcadeKid's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

    I read your original post. It seems you didn't read mine although you quoted it. Vote on what you feel comfortable voting on. Don't force your opinions on everyone like its law. Simple simple stuff here people


    Apologies I didn't mean to quote your post, it was the one above about needing lots of cameras, I clicked on the wrong reply. Opps.

    [EDIT - I didn't mention the one camera possibility in OP, must of been one of the many other threads I ranted on this!]

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    Updated 03-02-2021 at 03:56 PM by 80sArcadeKid (Clarification)
  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    the problem with doing it with one camera, is the further back the camera is, the more it includes, the less the quality of everyting in the camera. pulling back the camera to include person could lead to its own concerns on lower quality of game itself.

    the trade off really is a problem. like i said my marathon point, i get it. if people demanded going forward marathon have to show hands, i wouldnt complain, but i'd also have never done my atari 2600 marathon. my arcade i would've done, that was important enough that with arcade owner help i met those requirements. but for console it just owuldnt have been worth it. so while i wouldnt object to such a rule, i can absolutley state there would be few subs as a result.

    theres also problem with determing which scores are more prestigious than others. i mean yes of course some are, but the problem with formally acknowledging that, is all the opinion invovled as well as room for special treatment and ridiculous superiority complexes that we dont need a return to.


    focus on where you think its the biggest problem and make a case for it in those corner cases.

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  19. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    Daniel is right you're not forcing things. But there is a fine line between expressing opinions and suggesting that this should be the standard of proof. I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I respect your opinions but I'm skeptical that any rules changes should be made based on your general doubts.

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  20. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    I'm concerned about participation. More stringent rules to rule out corner cases means the main body of participation suffers. You may say its easy but that's like your opinion man.

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