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Almighty Dreadlock
10-24-2019 at 09:20 PM
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D Day

Arcade track:

MAME track:

20,450 point arcade sub:

16,800 point arcade sub:

Arcade track's rules were copied from MAME track's rules, which are clearly inadequate.

Two pending submissions have poor gameplay footage, which nevertheless shows that the machine was loaded with dozens of credits, when played.

Is gameplay footage which does not show any score progression acceptable, when the game can apparently be started with an advanced score (20,000 points)?

The above subs' evidence show the following settings:-

Coin Acceptor Options 1: 1 Coin, 6 Credits
Coin Acceptor Options 2: 1 Coin, 1 Credit
Number of Guns: 3
Extended Play: Bonus Gun at 10,000
Game Difficulty: Difficult
Unused Switch: On
Free Play: Off.

Note that there are no "Unknown" switches, and only one "Unused".

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  1. Barthax's Avatar

    Is gameplay footage which does not show any score progression acceptable, when the game can apparently be started with an augmented score (20,000 points)?

    There were definitely instances in old TG runs where such anomalies occurred were disqualified. How consistent that played out, I obviously can't tell.

    With TGSAP, if there's a scoring anomaly then it is up to the submitter to provide the proof. However, with TGSAP, I'd expect it would get accepted and then disputed, so my personal choice would be to abstain (not how TGSAP should work but how CR enforces voting security).

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  2. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    If the scoring progression isn't clear *and* a game can be shown to start with a particular score other than zero, the I would have to say it would absolutely be a problem, and I would be forced to vote no. On this title, based on all of evidence I have seen, starting with a score other than zero is not an option, and if one were to show me how it *could* happen on this title, I would have to vote no on both submissions. In the event the scoring progression is something other than clear, and there are no options to start the game at something other than zero, then the question is a good one, and would be something I would have to mull over, and make a decision. As of now. Ive removed my votes on both subs.

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  3. GibGirl's Avatar

    I just checked this out in MAME. The MAME dip switch settings do not match the manual in some ways - the "extended play" setting in MAME has different values than shown in the arcade manual. DIP 8 is also listed as "free play" in the manual, but "start with 20k" in MAME. However, testing it out shows that the setting in the arcade game pics would not start with 20k if that was the functionality.

  4. JJT_Defender's Avatar

    I been really busy with my 4 half month baby boy, working a lot 12 to 16 hours and taking care of my mother. I am tired most of the time. Trying to finish everything, I need a vacation. I will do what I can ok bare with me.

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    Updated 10-25-2019 at 01:02 PM by JJT_Defender
  5. JJT_Defender's Avatar

    This is what the D Day game footage should look when Twin Galaxy members are adjudicating the arcade D Day game submission.

    Lives: 3
    Extended Play at: 10000
    Unknown: Off
    [All] Start with 20000 pts: No

    Were you can clearly see the scoring,getting extra man and game play throughout the video. as well as showing correct Dip Switch game settings from Dip Switch 3.

    The game video from the 2 players, never showed the a clear game play or scoring or getting extended play at 10,000.

    I recommend that the 2 players resubmit & play another arcade D Day game video that can see the starting game at 0 Zero to begin the game,to show there game play, there scoring, and getting a extended play at 10,000

    I recommend that

    @SincerelyFranny @TWIN GALAXIES put in the correct DIP SWITCH with Dip Switch 3 being the Game settings, Extra Lives bonus into the rules for the Arcade D - Day game

    As Almightdreadlock indicated a Twin Galaxy member cannot determine if the player actually started at zero, as well as seeing clearly the scoring and game play.

    Here below is what the game play of D - Day when adjudicating should look like:

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  6. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    So the two main issues are:

    1. The machine had a lot of credits at the start. Unless there is a precedent of this for this particular game, I don't see how this affects gameplay or scoring.

    2. It is possible to start with a 20,000 points score. In the case of the 16,800 points score I think we can safely assume that he did not start with 20k and in the case of the 20,450 points score, I find almost imposible that he only scored 450 points and the other 20k were there from the start.

    If there is another important issue that I'm overlooking I would like to know, otherwise I don't think this is enough to reject the scores, which by the way are the only ones on that track (created by these players).

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  7. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola
    In the case of the 16,800 points score I think we can safely assume that he did not start with 20k
    I disagree, because there's at least one way to lose points (observable in the YT footage provided by Mr Torres). I don't know this game, so I also wouldn't assume that 20,000 points is the only advanced score from which a player may start.

    The main problem with accepting these submissions, without fixing the track first, is that someone could play the game at a lower difficulty level, and make an acceptable sub. If that were to happen, before the track is fixed, we would be in the ridiculous situation of having to use these earlier subs, in which the gameplay footage is so poor that you can't see whether the players are gaining or losing points, as a basis for rejecting the acceptable sub.
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    Updated 10-25-2019 at 06:58 PM by Almighty Dreadlock
  8. The Evener's Avatar

    Thanks for raising these issues for broader discussion, AD, I think this is a great way for the community to consider the elements of a successful submission and how we can adjudicate.

    After reviewing the videos, spending much longer than I thought I would searching around for related information, and playing the game on MAME, I'm comfortable with voting YES on the two submissions. However, there will have to be some rule clean-up, as you point out.

    The first thing I noticed is that the Olympia version of D-Day is slightly different from the Centuri version when looking at DIP switches. To see how the DIPS are configured, you can visit the Internet Arcade and load up the Olympia version there. Hit tab and you can select the DIPs to modify.

    One thing I noticed from watching the videos is that neither player is awarded an extra gun at 10,000 points, which is the apparent setting when looking at the Centuri guide. In comparing the PCB DIPs with the same configuration in the MAME version, it appears that the actual setting is an extra gun after 25,000 points.

    In the Centuri version, the game difficulty can be modified by DIPs 5 and 6, where in the Olympia (MAME) version they are "Unknown." I played with these, and I couldn't discern any change in difficulty, so they may be unassigned. That said, if anyone wants to experiment please do - I was getting a bit tired so my fatigue might have dulled my senses.

    I did confirm that you can start with 20,000 points by flipping DIP 8. Basically, once you hit your first enemy, you're awarded 20,000, and thereafter regular point accumulation resumes. The 20,000 bonus is disabled in both submissions.

    I am comfortable with the performances being conducted on cabinets that have multiple credits already coined up. Unless there is documented evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to focus on DIP settings for the establishment of gameplay parameters. I do recall that already coined up games was an issue around Donkey Kong, but I think this was also due to direct recording submissions. That said, I prefer to fashion submissions where I coin up on video in order to ensure that greatest number of people are comfortable voting yes.

    In terms of score accumulation, unfortunately it can't be easily tracked, although if you freeze the game play at key parts, you can spy the score very faintly (more so on Petr's submission) if you take a clip and zoom in. Not ideal for sure, but we do have a clear view of the game so we can see much see the general flow and pace of the on-screen action, and we have a clear view of the player at the helm. Combined with the clear documentation of the PCB and the DIPs used for gameplay, I am comfortable voting yes on the submissions. My own take is that, as adjudicators, we do have discretion to take into account the context of the submission - it's in a public arcade, there's a submission video, we have evidence of game play, we can clearly see the submitter personally playing the game, and we have the opportunity to examine the PCB and DIP settings. It's not a perfect video, but I think when it's taken in tandem with the other elements, I think we can exercise our discretion without being arbitrary and accept that the score submission is legit.

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    Updated 10-25-2019 at 08:53 PM by The Evener
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