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Almighty Dreadlock
12-22-2020 at 01:21 PM
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Galaga "tournament settings" submissions

This submission was accepted, and has not been disputed, so it would seem that at least one group of adjudicators thinks that it is OK to use "marathon settings", when submitting to the "tournament" track. I am curious to know what the wider consensus about this is, if any.

The "tournament" track's rules require players to start with 5 ships, and collect no bonuses. In his submitted game, Mr Upland starts with 3 ships, and collects bonuses. His score was limited to the points he made with his first 5 ships.

Is it acceptable for voters to ignore the incorrect settings, or do future submissions doing the same risk being rejected? If the former, it should be noted that the aforelinked sub has set a precedent. Every other game recorded on the scoreboard was played using the correct settings.

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  1. francoisadt's Avatar

    Are there any player advantages gained by doing so?


    It's then allmost the same as playing mspacman starting 4 men vs 3men with extra man at 10K but the score is above 10k anyway? No advantage in game play or ghost ai in my alternative example given here... I do not know or have seen the z80 code of Galaga to explain no benefit arises by doing so.

    It is always safer playing default settings in case...

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  2. Barra's Avatar

    Incorrect settings yes but effectively the same as any game played on correct settings. This has also been applied the other way around; my tournament submission is listed on the marathon track too.


  3. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    This reminded me I had a Tournament settings Gyruss run from three years ago that I could submit to the Marathon settings track. Thanks!

  4. Pearl2hu's Avatar

    theres no difference in a score done on 5 life no extend to a marathon run where the score on the 5th death is marked down.

  5. Snowflake's Avatar

    I know when its the other way around @lexmark is especaily upset at some runs, this though is the exact opposite. Its already happened a few times that if someone sets the setting to get the lives sooner than they should -- as long as they dont lose their other lives before that, then the extra lives didnt matter cause they've eventually be earned anyway.

    here though you have the exact opposite you have someone with setting that give the lives (3+2 so the 2 lives) later than it should, if getting lives too soon is accepted then surely getting them too late is.

    i'd prefer people just use the correct setting and i complained the first few times it happened, but if you look up redelf donkey kong and rtm super galaxian you'll see that some people are VERY passionate about allowing this sort of thing. in fact we were even told that in the old days any ref that tried to enforce the rules like you are wouldnt stay ref long for all, so i take that as an admission the old ref days had no problem allowing this. not that we hold ourselves to their standard but it does show this has been around for a while.

  6. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    As Mr Upland's game illustrates, there is a material difference between playing Galaga on "marathon" and "tournament" settings. He allowed his fifth fighter to be captured by a mothership, and claimed the score he had, at that point. He then rescued that fifth fighter with his sixth fighter, by shooting down the mothership. Thus, the fifth fighter did not die, and continued scoring, well beyond the points total claimed by Mr Upland.

    Had he claimed the score attained at the time of the fifth fighter's actual death, that claim would be as legitimate as the one he did make. The fact that the fifth fighter was aided in its scoring effort by the sixth fighter is irrelevant, as there is no rule against doubling up your fifth fighter with the sixth. There is, on the other hand, a rule against having a sixth fighter. But, since you know it alls have decided that that particular rule may casually be ignored, the loophole is now open.

  7. Barra's Avatar

    Your 5th fighter doesn't have to "die". If your 5th fighter gets captured in a tournament settings game, your game is over just as it would be if you had died. Its exactly the same. There is no difference.

  8. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barra
    Your 5th fighter doesn't have to "die". If your 5th fighter gets captured in a tournament settings game, your game is over just as it would be if you had died.
    .
    Well, it's just grand that you, and other adjudicators, feel free to make up new rules, in order to justify breaking established rules. This unwritten rule you just outlined, it applies to all of the first five fighters, right? So, a player could not, for example, allow his or her fourth fighter to be captured; get his or her fifth fighter destroyed, trying to free it; and then have another try at doubling up, using the sixth fighter? This possibility is also covered by your "tournament and marathon crossover" rules, am I correct?
  9. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    I think it's pretty common sense when talking about the fifth fighter and any fighter beyond that fifth fighter. Five ships only. When you lose control of your fifth ship for whatever reason then your run ends there.


    I thought the concern was the number of ships to start with and when the extends come in based on the settings. This idea that somehow the current rules* provide for or enable someone to claim the sixth ship can be used in a five ships game is quite a stretch of the imagination.


    *Edit: the current RULES should have been worded as the current ADJUDICATION STANDARDS to be more clear.

    Updated 12-27-2020 at 03:33 AM by bensweeneyonbass
  10. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass
    This idea that somehow the current rules* provide for or enable someone to claim the sixth ship can be used in a five ships game is quite a stretch of the imagination.
    .
    That "idea" doesn't come from me. I am the one highlighting the rule against having a sixth fighter, in the first place. So, I think the "stretch of the imagination" is yours. Nevertheless, I approve. Using your imagination is good, when it enables you to foresee hypothetical possibilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass
    the current RULES should have been worded as the current ADJUDICATION STANDARDS to be more clear.
    .
    If you believe that the rules ought to be modified, you may make an appropriately worded recommendation to admin.
  11. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar

    I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say.

    The rules are fine as-is. The adjudication you linked to appears to have counted the score when the fifth fighter gets captured. There doesn't appear to be a reason to dispute it on the grounds of using more ships than five. Still not sure why you bring up the sixth ship.

    If you're stuck on the settings being different - fine. You're allowed to be against settings being different than what are specified in the rules. That's your right. Vote how you please. But those familiar with Galaga seem to believe there is no practical difference in game play with respect to the settings differences. That's their right too to interpret the game play in the submitted performance.

    Am I missing something? Are you just unsatisfied with the adjudication result or are you trying to get something changed? You know an appropriately worded and concise comment to admin is the way to do that.

  12. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass
    Am I missing something?
    .
    My intention was to find out if there is a well thought out consensus on disregarding rules. I've more or less accomplished this, so know what to do, from now on. Additional views, whether similar to or opposing those above, are welcome.
  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    dread you have indeed found a difference, but the difference only occurs AFTER that point, which is why everyone is saying its up to the capture point that matters. You're misrepresentating the opposing argument. The claim isnt simply "that rule can be ignored because the settings never matter" its "that rule can be ignored because breaking it doesnt matter for this submission". as long as you stop when the 5th ship is captured, then no there is no material difference. both things were done, the rule was ignored AND the scoring for this submission stopped at this point. since both are true, a rule that had no difference for the purpose of the submission was broken.


    i will give you this though, even though i completely feel you're wrong i have zero doubt others would draw the same conclusions you did and so at a minimum you have absolutely proven what a can of worms making these exceptions cause. If people want to avoid many many future arguments like this it would be better to just follow the rules

  14. The Evener's Avatar

    EDIT: Looking at more video, spoke too early

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    Updated 12-27-2020 at 10:45 AM by The Evener
  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    EDIT: Looking at more video, spoke too early


    i'll still say its relevant. When working with other humans its not enough to be correct we also have to be clear. You're a smart guy, you made a mistake, others could make the mistake too. If good rules are too complicated for adjudicators to follow and it results in mistakes then the good rules become bad rules. When considering rules i think we should consider not just whats right, but whats easy to determine is right.

    so i dont think jacob's score should be disputed, but i do think we should discourage that sort of thing to avoid debates like this.

  16. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    You're misrepresentating the opposing argument.
    .
    Only in your imagination, because I made no argument to counter. If you read the initial wall post, you will see that I am fully aware that Mr Upland used 5 fighters to make his score. I have no intention of disputing his submission. What I wanted to do was draw attention to how it was adjudicated, since it set a precedent for its particular scoreboard. Now that the disregarding of established rules, and making up unwritten rules, is all out in the open, I am satisfied. At least the subject got a little bit of examination.
  17. Barra's Avatar

    "Special Rules: Attempts for this variation may be done on Marathon Settings, but once you've lost your 4th Life, you may not allow your ship to be captured or your Tournament Score attempt ends immediately."

    Taken from https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/galaga/arcade/points-tournament-settings/page/1

    I'll make a request to get this added to the MAME track

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