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andrewg
11-18-2017 at 06:51 PM
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Do you want a fair scoreboard?

I guess I can't leave Twin Galaxies entirely. I love the concept of Twin Galaxies and always have. The idea of tracking everything in gaming is a noble but just isn't even close to possible. I love competing on games and have a ton of fun doing so.

I've been on Twin Galaxies for nearly 15 years and the last 10 have been mostly bad. The trolls, the cheaters, the old guards, the crazies, there is a lot of nonsense and I don't think anyone could argue that the drama here and in a few other arcade websites is out of control.

I take competitive gaming pretty seriously (as seriously as most anyone), and the thing is, everyone wants different things for Twin Galaxies and this is the problem. My focus is fair competition and having been around so long I have discussed about every topic under the sun when it comes to this hobby. I just want to express my final thoughts before I leave (the forum at least) for a while.

So here goes...
I want a fair scoreboard for Twin Galaxies. Many people here don't want a fair scoreboard. Many people want a scoreboard with impossible scores, with scores that have no proof except a number, with scores that were set when no rules were in place, etc.

Twin Galaxies has changed over the years. Hiding tactics is a thing of the past, but still not for some players. The irony being that you want to be recognized for having achieved something no one can validate... And well, that's Twin Galaxies flaw summarized in one short sentence. This absolutely kills and drives away competition.

How can I trust a score that I can't view and that has no proof? Because a potentially corrupt, inept, or biased referee might have verified it or because it was accepted before proof was required for scores? 1980s to 2000 scores were mostly word of mouth scores. There's no proof many of these scores actually happened, but I don't want to discount them entirely either. But as far as world records go, the #1 spot should belong to the best proven and verifiable score. Many old scores have enough supporting evidence to trust the validity, but many don't and should not be listed alongside those that can be proven. How fair is it? Who wants to compete against scores that are literally impossible or clearly a mistake that have no supporting proof? Why don't we put Steve Sanders old DK score back up? Who says he didn't get 800 pt smashes every time and play perfectly and ha perfect luck to get his score? It was on the board so clearly it was proven to be true at one point, so let's put all those scores back up. This is your logic. Clearly 5.51 was a fluke in the matrix and not like the countless scores already removed on TG. The vast majority of 80s scores have been topped or never happened; get over yourselves.

There is a lot to be said for paving the way for the future gamers. We aren't better than 80s gamers, we just know more.

Records are meant to be broken.
ThanksRiokaii, RedM, Shawne25, mav6771, francoisadt and 3 others thanked this post
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Comments
  1. francoisadt's Avatar
    The whole reason why esports competitions are successfull are becuase
    the game play are transparent.

    If TG wants to kook-into esports then TG have to stop the nonsense and be
    real, probably rather put on ultimatums towards gamers to either proof there scores
    or replay games to proof there ability/.

    First before doing this ask gamers, with bogus/impossible scores, if gamers care about their scores to exist on TG scoreboard or not and if TG may remove without an attempt to proof
    the score. If not - just remove the score. Quite a few post were provided Todd do not care
    about his dragster score, if so remove his dragster score and move on.
  2. Snowflake's Avatar
    Welcome back and well said. I’m not afraid to get heavily involved in the drama but I do see it as a means to an end. Change is hard and tg is changing. You gotta expect a fight from those who liked benefited from and were part of the corruption. I believe it will eventually settle down and well stabilize. As for not being better than 80s gamers well some of us were 80s gamers but just wanted nothing to do with TG until jace took over. As gamers are finally getting a fair chance the good ones are joining up. Having you here means a lot. Thanks for not giving up
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  3. Snowflake's Avatar
    You mention what stops a large enough click, i'd say what stops it, is such a large number of corrupt people just dont exist. Literally any system you could ask that of. What stops a single dictator from being corrupt? What a stops a small aristocracy from being corrupt? What stops the majority of voters in a democracy from being corrupt? yes, if every single person invovled in the decision making process is corrupt, then the system will fail. Smaller groups are easier to corrupt and control than large ones. What stops a corrupt group from abusing TG is that such a group just plain cant get the numbers.
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  4. CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY's Avatar
    All I hear is baby rattles and people insignificant and irrelevant to the gaming scene and the community
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  5. Snowflake's Avatar
    even the US example you give, all 3 branches could get corrupt, do we just hope that doesnt happen? I'm fully acknowledging it COULD be a problem in theory, I'm also saying its not a problem yet, highly unlikley to be a problem, and no better solution i'm aware of exists. I think a supreme court example in this case would be a step towards more corruption as it would be a smaller group making the call. currently we do have 3 steps for score removal.
    1. someone with high enough cred is willing to put their name on the line making the dispute
    2. the community as a whole votes
    3. dave, after discussing with others, makes the final call.

    this makes it hard to remove scores, and it should be hard. I'm not in favor of streamlining the process of score removal.

    now of course, all that said, its not perfect. If anyone has suggestions on how to improve its worth listening to.
  6. andrewg's Avatar
    Things have been trending in the right direction because of Jace. Things are getting cleared up a bit with the challenge board, etc.

    I think it would be valuable for someone (maybe the community) to manually go through the top leaderboards with the most entries and systematically point out any flaws. I'm thinking all the big name games here. Is there a list of tracks with the most submissions?

    Off the top of my head (excluding pinball) I would imagine Donkey Kong has the most. Pacman has a lot I'm sure. Really i would think just clearing up the big name games to start would be very beneficial. Just a suggestion.
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  7. andrewg's Avatar
    The sorting on the world rankings page is essentially what I'm looking for excluding the racing and individual level tracks. In many ways I think the list of most submitted games is very valuable... I really think things could be cleared up or optimized from games with tons of submissions.

    Again this leads back to things I've brought up before. Individual levels are simply not as significant as full track variations. I just think as for ESI calculation they shouldn't be factored in the same way. I'd love to see some master list culmination of individual stages. "Fastest individual level total" would encourage players to submit for all tracks of a game mode, potentially in one submission (potentially making adjudication less cluttering).
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  8. datagod's Avatar
    The old system was vulnerable to being corrupted and colluded:
    - private tape review
    - no public evidence
    - referees allowed to live together
    - referees allowed to submit scores
    - forum moderators

    The new system is far superior:
    - adjudications are public
    - all evidence publicly viewable
    - all members can participate in process
    - no more concept of referee
    - community is self moderating via tribunal system

    People unhappy with the current system seem to want to fall back to the old system. Some of those same people are now suspected as being cheaters or corrupted individuals who tolerated cheating.

    Let's stick with the new system and let it settle down. Eventually a lot of kinks will be worked out, and we can get back to submitting scores and making gaming great again.
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  9. CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY's Avatar
    Of course ANYONE who is under stress or against the system IS obviously not to be trusted and IS worried about their scores and accounts falling and MANY of you deserve what is coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Next time you think before you act!!!!!!!!!!
  10. Marcade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod
    The old system was vulnerable to being corrupted and colluded:
    - private tape review
    - no public evidence
    - referees allowed to live together
    - referees allowed to submit scores
    - forum moderators

    The new system is far superior:
    - adjudications are public
    - all evidence publicly viewable
    - all members can participate in process
    - no more concept of referee
    - community is self moderating via tribunal system

    People unhappy with the current system seem to want to fall back to the old system. Some of those same people are now suspected as being cheaters or corrupted individuals who tolerated cheating.

    Let's stick with the new system and let it settle down. Eventually a lot of kinks will be worked out, and we can get back to submitting scores and making gaming great again.
    This...

    And bottom line, if anyone feels in the year 2017, to live in the past, and the need to drive in reverse, AKA- the non-transparent ways, with a referee only system...

    Then guess what? You are a dinosaur!

    ADAPT or DIE!
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  11. datagod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade
    This...

    And bottom line, if anyone feels in the year 2017, to live in the past, and the need to drive in reverse, AKA- the non-transparent ways, with a referee only system...

    Then guess what? You are a dinosaur!

    ADAPT or DIE!
    But but but muh private tactics! Muh special techniques! Muh muh muh legacy!
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  12. thegamer1185's Avatar
    Yet we won't allow clone systems that run identically to their original counterparts be accepted for submissions....................................... .................................................. .................................................. ................not letting go of the past quite yet. Just saying, Analogue now has an NES and an SNES coming in February.
  13. datagod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by BenMullen
    I would take a rare moment to join with him in agreeing this new system is better than the past one. It does tend to give power to the people which is exactly the type of power needed to have an honest discussion about a game done on non-original hardware. I say just submit and defend!
    Thanks Ben! I suggest we let bygones be bygones, start our relationship anew here on TG.
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  14. Snowflake's Avatar
    To me “letting go of the past” doesn’t mean being different just for the sake of being different but rather simply not seeing past ways as sacred, seeing “but that’s how it used to be done” as insufficient. The argument about clones is usually based on purity rather than tradition. Whereas the argument about procedure with the past ussully the only defense of the old system is that’s how it used to be and we need to respect it. I have no problem keeping old ways that make sense
  15. CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY's Avatar
    I am not letting go of anything unless that person was misunderstood or really made effort to be a friend ONCE you cross me I am done, you don't mess with a NY Italian......

    So at this point it's called Cordial and Neutral at best!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  16. Snowflake's Avatar
    i was specifically refering to thegamer1185's comment about letting go of the past to suggest we allow clones. I guess that might not have been your focus, but i wanted to clear up any misconception he may have had about the split being for the same reasons as the past stuff datagod was talking about
  17. Snowflake's Avatar
    and in particular i was refering to the way forward, i was refering to, going forward, not using "letting go of the past" as an excuse to just change everything. is there something different going forward you'd like to discuss as well?
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  18. datagod's Avatar
    Rudy, I seem to recall you being very upset with me at one point, now we are besties!
  19. CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY's Avatar
    [QUOTE=datagod;bt12365]Rudy, I seem to recall you being very upset with me at one point, now we are besties![/QUOTE]


    You didn't cross me as much however I already handled u pretty good and to this day my nickname for ya flys so we are EVEN


    OOOOppps Flies
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  20. CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY's Avatar
    It's been just fine the way it is, and yeah elected adjudicators sure worked well in the past with all them I'll corrupted refs. I mean just like it's so working well with Ill people in our govt too righttttt. Thank God for President Trump and thank God for peer review!!!!!!! Govt needs to be smaller and not have politicians and here we have a community and the owner and commissioner.......
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