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11-30-2019 at 04:21 AM
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Tightening up the dispute system?

Mud sticks and TG really needs to start penalising people that create a dispute against a score with zero evidence. "That's impossible", "my friend can't achieve that", "my friend can only achieve that with TAs" and "I don't believe it" are reasons people have given for opening disputes. An opinion or someone else's lesser skills are not reasons to open a dispute & there should be penalties against those people that do so.

I get it - people want to make their opinions & observations known. Open a thread on the forum or make a wall post about it: fine - you are entitled to your opinion. However, TG's idea of a dispute thread is that you bring the evidence with you. If you fail to do that, you are the one at fault and should be penalised.

I acknowledge that some opinions are grey area: AD's interpretation of leeching, to him, means the Double Dragon scores are invalid. Those disputes are opinion on how the rules are interpreted & the dispute is a good test of the rule set. To me, that's a valid use of the dispute system: opinionable evidence that requires the rules of the track be tested for validity.

Once a valid dispute is open, TG's rules are that the dispute thread should remain on target. Plenty of us have banter in those threads that lends nothing to the thread. Where's the moderation of content that TG requires they be maintained on-target for the discussion. A significant portion of the negativity surrounding TG is brought into the public eye by the disputes (previously bubbling in dank corners). Once sores are opened, all manner of puss-filled garbage gets written into those dispute threads. Where's the moderation? I'm not talking deletion, just movement of content: leave a pointer to a "non-evidence" thread so that those interesting in bottom-feeding the Internet can do so but leaving the dispute thread with actual on-topic content.

Cue the trolls...

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Comments
  1. datagod's Avatar

    Can you give us an example of a dispute that has zero evidence?

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  2. Joonas's Avatar

    I agree that if a dispute is only opened because "I don't like that guy", then there should be repercussions. That said, like Datagod, I would like an example of such dispute. I've read plenty of dispute threads and pretty much always there has been some evidence.

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  3. Tompa's Avatar

    My only "evidence" for the DKC dispute was that "Even a perfect TAS is 3 minutes short of this time". Sure, the player could have some knowledge from 2001 that not a single runner since knew about. The chance for this is 0%, but I can't prove anything. Still, it was enough to be an accepted dispute.

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  4. Barthax's Avatar
  5. RTM's Avatar

    Andrew, I asked Jace and Dave the very same question recently...Jace's response, and I quote..."You are asking for a punitive action to be taken on the basis of a subjective determination"

    I'll send you a PM with the complete exchange but it would appear that Jace has already determined that weighing a dispute as being frivolous and/or without proper evidence would be "subjective".


    I suggested a "tort reform" similar to the way that prisoners are penalized for launching frivolous/nuissance lawsuits while incarcerated (such as "I am depressed from wearing the same outfit day in and day out" and so forth), but a hard-line approach does not seem to be on the radar right now.

    Maybe if more people ask for it, though.

  6. Joonas's Avatar

    Ah yes, one of them is the infamous Pinball thread. I don't know what evidence the submitter could have added to the claim of a typo? I hardly see that one as a punishable dispute. With the evidence you Andrew provided in that thread there is more questions than answers. He used some ''skillshot'' trick, but we don't know if it can be counted as a glitch. Without the video it's really hard to ever evaluate what happened on that submission; but considering all the factors around it, I think it atleast deserves it's own dispute thread.

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  7. RTM's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by datagod
    Can you give us an example of a dispute that has zero evidence?




    RTM REPLY - here's one...

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/180398-Dispute-william-rosa-Atari-2600-VCS-Journey-Escape-NTSC-Dollars-Player-Robert-T-Mruczek-Score-2-054-302

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  8. Ninglendo's Avatar
  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    i would've agreed you a few years ago, i agree what you say on surface makes sense, but if i may provide a dissenting view. Think of evne the old days, wasnt there some star wars arcade marathon that would've taken 1000 hours? wasnt one of the main scores that got the ball rolling on ron's removal a 100hr + score? i understand a score that we dont believe cause it would take 1000 hours is differnet than a score that i just think its too hard for me so it cant be done, but you see my point. wheres the line? there are theoretically possible scores that i question are huanly possible. jace himself during the todd dispute said stakes were high and if todd proven innocent it would call into doubt all other scores people thought the proven impossible, but if proven guilty would enhance doubt in scores that seemed too good to be true.

    you listed the jr pacman i challenged. i'd like to point out within i dont call the person a cheater i even acknowledge the score may be real but since atari had setting mass changed perhaps it was played on different settings. i'll admit there' alot of things you can call me on, but i really dont feel i did anyhting wrong with the atari jr pacman dispute. in my opinion, between the ridiculous difficulty as well as the knowledge atari did have setting mucked up on many scores, and i think it was worth questioning.

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  10. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    Why does it matter that someone starts a dispute you don't agree with? The scores aren't getting removed with no evidence provided. It's simply a dispute. It's not a big deal. Get over it.


    If someone were to ever dispute one of my scores with zero evidence I would give absolutely zero shats. Every single one of my scores are legit. I've never cheated and I've reviewed every score to make sure there are none that were entered incorrectly. My conscience is 100% clear. The only reason I can see for this to upset someone is if there's isn't.


    I have zero problems with the current dispute system and see no issues with people starting disputes on scores that don't meet everyone's definition of having solid evidence. Unless someone can give me an example of where a legit score has been removed, then this is a non issue.

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  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    something both related and unrelated. in cases of frivolous disputes, or even valid questions that are then answered and score proven valid, i could see a case for moving. i understand the reason for keeping disputes open forever. but think of when a dispute realy is resolved by moving the score to a different track, yeah the dispute should stay open so people can see why it was moved, but does that dispute have to clutter the active dispute forums? disputes where there is no longer disagreement and everyone is satisifed with the score should probably be moved to their own resolved or at least temporarily resolved area where they can later be reopened if for whatever reason someone is again unsatisfied with the answer

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  12. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper

    Why does it matter that someone starts a dispute you don't agree with? The scores aren't getting removed with no evidence provided. It's simply a dispute. It's not a big deal. Get over it.


    If someone were to ever dispute one of my scores with zero evidence I would give absolutely zero shats. Every single one of my scores are legit. I've never cheated and I've reviewed every score to make sure there are none that were entered incorrectly. My conscience is 100% clear. The only reason I can see for this to upset someone is if there's isn't.


    I have zero problems with the current dispute system and see no issues with people starting disputes on scores that don't meet everyone's definition of having solid evidence. Unless someone can give me an example of where a legit score has been removed, then this is a non issue.


    Dick Moreland nails it again!

    Apparently, people get upset with the asterisk that comes along with a DISPUTED score.

    If a dispute is an honest mistake, OR EVIDENCE is provided of a VALID score under a dispute, Id say close up the dispute, remove the "asterisk". AND Lock it up, so it cannot be disputed again.

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    have to disagree with locking marcade, think how that could be abused. a cheater could have his friend dispute his score with no evidence, then it gets locked, then when real evidence comes along itsforever protected.

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  14. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    have to disagree with locking marcade, think how that could be abused. a cheater could have his friend dispute his score with no evidence, then it gets locked, then when real evidence comes along itsforever protected.


    Maybe...But in todays TG, only one man decides the fate of the dispute system, and what gets removed, no matter how many vote, AND how much real evidence is provided.

    Otherwise, I do see Jace is knocking the ball out of the park lately, addressing final decisions on these disputes... Hope he keeps it up.

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  15. RTM's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    i would've agreed you a few years ago, i agree what you say on surface makes sense, but if i may provide a dissenting view. Think of evne the old days, wasnt there some star wars arcade marathon that would've taken 1000 hours? wasnt one of the main scores that got the ball rolling on ron's removal a 100hr + score? i understand a score that we dont believe cause it would take 1000 hours is differnet than a score that i just think its too hard for me so it cant be done, but you see my point. wheres the line? there are theoretically possible scores that i question are huanly possible. jace himself during the todd dispute said stakes were high and if todd proven innocent it would call into doubt all other scores people thought the proven impossible, but if proven guilty would enhance doubt in scores that seemed too good to be true.

    you listed the jr pacman i challenged. i'd like to point out within i dont call the person a cheater i even acknowledge the score may be real but since atari had setting mass changed perhaps it was played on different settings. i'll admit there' alot of things you can call me on, but i really dont feel i did anyhting wrong with the atari jr pacman dispute. in my opinion, between the ridiculous difficulty as well as the knowledge atari did have setting mucked up on many scores, and i think it was worth questioning



    RTM REPLY - the "Star Wars" anecdote was from the 1998-2000 range...Walter had a score of 6 billion in the TG database, something that would have taken an estimated 860-1000 hours to accomplish. Turns out his old staff added two (2) extra zeroes to that database entry.

    Corcoran's claim was removed years before Jace removed all of his scores...he claimed a 100+ hour performance on something called "Adventures of Tron" and claimed he played the game for nearly 100 hours straight then took a 2 hour rest break before finishing up. This score was proven to be physically impossible aside from the "stay awake" factor by someone who knew.

    I can't remember when the score was even entered into the database as Corcoran entered several of his, including this one, under the radar (no referee, self-entered). There was no turnaround report of scores recently entered years back or internal report of self-entered scores, so you either spotted it on the TG front-page or it was missed. He did the same thing with ColecoVision " after a TG deca event...we both ended up with scores hovering aroung 500K, his was 499.980 and mine was 500,020. Post-event he entered a slightly higher score without ever submitting proof to then TG referee in charge of the CV platform, Stephen Knox.

    That aside, as far as scores being "humanly impossible" in terms of longevity, Todd's score removals ended his "Enduro" and "Journey Escape" claims of 40+ hours and 80+ hours respectively on effectively one-life titles. But the longest duration performances are well documented...I think there are at least 2 or 3 over the 78 hour mark at this time including the one on "Q*Bert" by George Leutz which was the first to break the 80-hour barrier officially. I forget if the other was on "Armor Attack"...can't remember...same if there was a third by now.

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  16. RTM's Avatar

    The "asterisk" issue seems to be the sole remaining problem...disputes linger for sometimes a painfully long amount of time. There's a few out there right now that were started back in August of 2017.


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  17. Snowflake's Avatar

    yes the other was armor attack john salter i think john was like 84 hrs or soemthing and george as like 83, john just barely beat him.

    obvioulsy those two proved such things are impossible, but they also had documentation. i dont think its at all unfair to be suspcious of such scores, especially if there are other suspicions combined. investigation start on reasonable doubt, not full out proof. the community can do alot together. one person might have one part of the story and be suspicous but not sure, the other person might have anotehr part of the story and be suspcious but not sure, but then when swapping notes all the evidence really adds up.

  18. datagod's Avatar

    People should not be intimidated into silence. Questioning scores is what we all do every time we adjudicate. When we are satisfied with the answers, we accept.

    Remember, under the current system it takes 4000 credibility points to open a dispute. That is not an easy number to achieve. It is understood that the person opening a dispute is experienced and has wisdom.

    Look at what we have discovered so far during this process. We now know that "back in the day" scores were stitched together (multiple credits / restarts) to compensate for power loss during game play (robotron). If peopel were unable to question these old incredible scores they would still stand.

    1000 hours playing a game? Sure why not. I mean we don't have film footage of the player sleeping for half that time, therefore we must accept.

    It seems to me that the only ones asking for punishment to be given are the ones defending possible corruption and collusion.


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  19. datagod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    Mud sticks...

    One more question. What do you mean by mud sticks?

  20. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by datagod


    One more question. What do you mean by mud sticks?


    Ever hear of the phrase S.H.I.T. sticks"?

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