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10-04-2021 at 02:48 AM
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TG tracks with "Default settings" rules for more modern consoles

So i missed a post on a sub by @Rogerpoco and so I thought I'd bring it here because it's a cesspit of interpretations...

Let's begin with the query from Roger: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/237497-Xbox-Moto-GP-2-NTSC-Time-Trial-Suzuka-Best-Lap-01-56-93-Roger-111

Hey, @Barthax - yur my rules "Go to Guy" anyway, and you know this game just a bit(I assume you'll have to reply elsewhere, this'll go thru soon...).
Ruleset, "Default". Ugh.
Do you have to use the one rider? I am because Briss did, and I think he's the first available driver.
You know, you have to work thru the game some to unlock the tracks, resulting in a created driver-can you use it?
(Otherwise, I have no reason to keep "playing the game", I have all I need unlocked to score).
Worried I am justifying, "wanting it my way", but for instance on XBox NASCAR, it specifically says "no created drivers", or whatever.

Also, the bike setup-we can change setups on NASCAR games with "default" in the rules.

I'm pretty sure changing views, displays, stuff like that isn't even what "default" is referring to.
There IS a section of options that define the "Sim Level", and other things of that nature-I actually think that is the main thing intended as "default", otherwise it's pretty hard to get much out of this game really, dozens of drivers, can only use one?

Just curious-the challenges are HARD, so getting enough points to make my created driver competitive will be tough, but I kinda want to do it.

To me, this is the prime example of people just being far too lazy with the rules & it kept happening even up to the demise of the Pete B. era TG (ended ~2011/2).


Let's get into what "Default" means in summary but there's something more in depth on the wiki at https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Factory-Default-and-Default-Settings . Default settings is how the game behaves without any user input. There's a problem with this & why I hate seeing tracks still having "Default settings" or "Factory default" (different conversation, same hatred).

Some brief thoughts:

1) In classic era where no save games existed, this simply meant "leave everything alone and play". If the game offered options for settings: ignore them and play with whatever the defaults are. Sounds reasonable, right? However, what if two versions of the game were released and both had different defaults? Yeah, "Default settings" was screwed right from the off. :(

2) For many games, some features are tucked away behind something unlockable - even for games with no save game. "Default settings" are as part 1 & unless the rules of a track prevent you (they're "Default settings" rules, so there's probably no other text!) then you can keep playing and unlocking those other features and gain the advantage through long term single-session play. (Note: I do _not_ wish to open the can of worms about passwords/passcodes/etc, please keep that in the already-lengthy threads elsewhere).

3) How does "Default settings" pan out when the console has a save game? There's two primary schools of thought and because "Default settings" essentially predates such tech (it doesn't in many cases but that's a whole other conversation about tight resources in ref era) there's no defined interpretation as to which to use.

Interpretation 1) Classic "Default settings". Take your memory card out of the machine: that's the settings to use. TG is ancient. The idea of "Default settings" is from an era where saved games were rare so the save game is not to be used.

Interpretation 2) Without any user input, the game would load a save game and therefore the default is to use saved information. On more modern consoles, the save game is stored inside the main console - it's not even a peripheral to plug in anymore. Many games use online saved which can't be prevented. It's the manufacturer intention to use the save games: so that's the default setting.

Remember that TG is ancient - 1980s thinking* went into the use of the phrase "Default settings". So which is it? Did "Default settings" evolve to be the console/game manufacturer's idea of the defaults or remain "no save game" in its interpretation.


* Note that many of the tracks which bear "Default settings" in their rules were actually empty rule sets in the early 2000s but an exercise was done to add the phrase to those tracks without rules!

Comments
  1. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Thanks for all the info.

    I do believe that something stands out to me reading all that-

    There IS some "common sense" stuff involved, with areas for people to do stupid things(no beef with stupid people, I kinda am one...).

    For instance, on this Moto GP, you can unlock mirrored and backwards tracks-obviously that's not what is meant by "default", you can't play those unless they are specifically tracked as mirrored or backwards.

    Also mebbe even has some weird things you can unlock, that affect gravity and stuff. Surely not allowed.


    So I think common sense has to come in to play, "I am playing this game normally, but with a character that I've worked to make more powerful".


    Crazy as it sounds, a very, very small part of me understands the "no memory card" idea of default, but that's kinda no fun, I'm sure the creators of racing games don't want the high scores on their game set with a Ford Tempo, haha!

    :)

    But then like you said, you get to more modern consoles.

    On this new-fangled original XBox I am playing(lol), it saves on it's own, internally. For the particular game I am playing, you have to "work" to open up most of the tracks listed for scores here-well, that's already "not default", by some interpretation, and would be an impossibility.


    I'm usually pretty intuitive, I may ask questions but my gut was usually right-I actually thought I was possibly trying to tailor the rules to my own desires on this one, but I guess not.


    Again, Thanks!!!

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  2. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Oh, I am due a ton of kicks.

    Sorry, Terr. I see one that is completely unnecessary, most of the rest are legit. PITA's, but legit...

    :)

  3. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerpoco

    Oh, I am due a ton of kicks.

    Sorry, Terr. I see one that is completely unnecessary, most of the rest are legit. PITA's, but legit...

    :)

    I think you meant for that post to go to some other location. ;)

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  4. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax


    I think you meant for that post to go to some other location. ;)


    Naw, I get a virtual kick in the butt from Terr, every time I use unnecessary quotes...

    :P

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  5. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Your examples revolve around saved games and memory cards and automatic save/load. To me, things like that are not considered settings.

    Settings to me are a menu with various options like: how many lives do you start with, after how many points is an extra life given, how difficult is the game, etc

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  6. swaggers's Avatar

    To me default settings lost all meaning past generation 1. And any time it's used period, past or present, is just pure lazy rule writing. All of them should be re-written to exact rules, ie. Setting A, Game B, this game has passcodes that can / can't be used. etc.

  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    even think "game a" or "game b" another point of view was that it wasnt different setting, but rather a multi game with multiple simliar games with minor differences.

    general rules are great to catch flaws that slip through the cracks. noone is gonna right every rule perfectly. But these emergency measures sould be just that, emergency measures, they shouldnt be relied on, cause well when you regulalry use your emergency measure in normal situations it means you have no actual emergency measure for emergencies.

    "default settings" as a global rule, when track writeres do their best to be explicit, will help fix honest mistakes that slip through. "default settings" that are relied in with no attempt by track writers to be explicit are poor design.

    im in total agreement with charles

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  8. Snowflake's Avatar

    well not just charles, i agree with everyone in this thread actually ;). i just really liked his emphasis on being explicit

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  9. thegamer1185's Avatar

    So if the game saves, it's okay? If the game doesn't save after unlocking things and you have to use passwords to retrieve them, you have to redo it to play it again? Well that makes perfect common sense!!! OOOOO, that was only if it used passwords. My bad guys, wrong thread about how the rules are so damn old and didn't consider future technology making them obsolete or lacking "common sense" as to their purposes...were have I heard that argument before but it got shot down so hard all of my submissions now sit in the queue?? So lets adjust for a few things while still not applying the same adjustments of common sense to other things. Yay!!!

    Side note: Poco, use the upgraded car or whatever it is you unlocked man. It's a racing game, go as fast as possible. Another rules can be interpreted how ever you want them to be, in many different ways that makes sense.

  10. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    So if the game saves, it's okay? If the game doesn't save after unlocking things and you have to use passwords to retrieve them, you have to redo it to play it again? Well that makes perfect common sense!!! OOOOO, that was only if it used passwords. My bad guys, wrong thread about how the rules are so damn old and didn't consider future technology making them obsolete or lacking "common sense" as to their purposes...were have I heard that argument before but it got shot down so hard all of my submissions now sit in the queue?? So lets adjust for a few things while still not applying the same adjustments of common sense to other things. Yay!!!

    Side note: Poco, use the upgraded car or whatever it is you unlocked man. It's a racing game, go as fast as possible. Another rules can be interpreted how ever you want them to be, in many different ways that makes sense.


    I kinda said before, I lean more toward your thinking on the passwords, but it's just not how it is.

    As Barthax stated, we are talking about a different issue here entirely, and that discussion is welcome...

    Somewhere else.

    I just don't really understand sometimes, why people just feel the need to keep saying something, McCarthy style, hoping it is going to change things?


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  11. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    So if the game saves, it's okay?

    Historically, it's the opposite: the track rules must explicitly state that it's OK to use the save because "consoles don't exit the manufacturer with them memory save capability" - it's a separate purchase and therefore not default. Then, by the original Xbox then PS3 and Xbox 360 HDD era (not all Xbox 360s had HDD), does the problem of whether the rules need to explicitly state to delete the game save? That TG era had such decisions made by the Platform Editor (Editor was later dropped and people just had the mantle Platform Referee) and the Platform Editor didn't have to write these things down in global rules because all submissions were going through them to be OK'd anyway.

    [Edit:] historically computers were not considered the same as consoles. Saves were expected on any platform that had that capability built in. Rules would be written with this in mind & instruct "must start a new game".

    Updated 10-05-2021 at 12:06 AM by Barthax
  12. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138

    Your examples revolve around saved games and memory cards and automatic save/load. To me, things like that are not considered settings.

    Settings to me are a menu with various options like: how many lives do you start with, after how many points is an extra life given, how difficult is the game, etc

    When i read this yesterday, something popped into my head and then popped straight back out... It's back again today.

    If the saved game stores those settings, which are the correct "default settings": the one without a save game or the one held in the saved game? Just an example of how ludicrous using "Default settings" can be: there's no method to adjudicate the settings of the saved game because there's no record in "Default settings" as to what "Default settings" actually are.

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  13. swaggers's Avatar

    Dispute: Patrick Stanley - Game Boy / Game Boy Color - Top Gear Pocket - Desert - Fastest Race - Player: Kyle Nelson - Patrick Stanley (twingalaxies.com)

    Also look at how TG handled the passcodes here. Expressly adding passcodes could be used. So "default settings", according to current TG, does NOT preclude use of passcodes for unlocks.


    EDIT: These rules were never "default settings" but were being implied as such and goes to point out a change in thought as the general consensus was if not explicitly allowed, then it was not allowed. And this ruling points more towards a shift to if not expressly disallowed, it is allowed.

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    Updated 10-05-2021 at 07:45 AM by swaggers
  14. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by swaggers

    Dispute: Patrick Stanley - Game Boy / Game Boy Color - Top Gear Pocket - Desert - Fastest Race - Player: Kyle Nelson - Patrick Stanley (twingalaxies.com)

    Also look at how TG handled the passcodes here. Expressly adding passcodes could be used. So "default settings", according to current TG, does NOT preclude use of passcodes for unlocks.


    EDIT: These rules were never "default settings" but were being implied as such and goes to point out a change in thought as the general consensus was if not explicitly allowed, then it was not allowed. And this ruling points more towards a shift to if not expressly disallowed, it is allowed.


    Notice that only the one track was adjusted for the game, however. Common sense can be expressly argued but just because a single use-case has transpired it does not follow that the whole scoreboard is shifted.

  15. thegamer1185's Avatar

    All of these discussions simply don't do any good. We have been having these types of discussions for years, and they keep coming up after a period of time because they are never updated in the official rules. We need to re-rewrite the rules. We are the adjudicators now. All of us, lets collaborate what is allowed in the TG era. There are so many things that are done now that aren't in the rules, and depending on who is around at the time (or not around) the information is either relayed forward or not at all and submissions pass that shouldn't, or don't pass that should. Lets re-write the rules, or more accurately update and/or modify them.

    As Barthax pointed out, the "Default settings" rule is completely outdated in modern console terms but for things like the NES/Gameboy and some situations in Sega/SNES era they make sense. I think we need to find that console cut off line where the rule does apply accurately, but were it needs to be cut off. Do we start with when saves first started, so battery backed games? Legend of Zelda I think is the first game to use a battery save. So default settings makes sense up to 1986, after that it should be modified to (whatever console), and it simply doesn't apply to auto saved games?? As Swyder mentioned, he mentioned how he thinks "Default settings" is a menu area where you can change difficulty, CPU AI things like that. What if someone wants to change their button layout (I am for that, I have done that), that is under the settings area. Changing anything technically breaks that default rule.

    Same goes for point pressing/leeching. How is this not a battened down rule yet? We should simply define what point pressing is, and all else would then be considered leeching? Modify if a situation comes up in a games special rules

    Passwords - I feel like any game that has an "unlock all" password was going to be added to all games it applied to in the Kelly Flewin era, they simply needed someone to play the game to bring it up and modify it. I noticed a lot of Tom Duncan played games has that rule, if he was a TG ref, it makes sense why they have them because he could change them.

    Modded consoles are a subject that has been brought up for a over a year and nothing seems to happen. I'm all for using them, some might not be. Lets figure it out.

    What about games that update stats/nerf stats. Madden games are now changing player ratings every week for example, that is not a fair advantage across the board but that is also nobodies fault. What do we do about things like that?

    Andrew mentioned using saves was not okay, we use them now. Were does that rule apply and end. Speedruns must be a new game, all other submissions saves are okay? Using a password to retrieve data that a game can't save, okay or not okay?

    We have these discussions, and none of them gets truly solved. I really don't think TG gives a **** about any of this anymore. If it is truly up to us, the adjudicators, lets do this. We are a collective hive of gaming information/knowledge in a new TG era, lets update this stuff and send it off to admin and see what they say. Otherwise, it all depends on who sees what and what time and that causes issues. Roger has been around a long time and is questioning the default settings rule....that should not even be happening at this point. All the focus seems to be all about "what do the rules say" and not about the scores people are posting now. It's kind of sad. I don't remember scores anymore I've watched, just the discussions about why it is acceptable or not.

    Of course we won't all agree, but I would say if we can find a 70% or 80% agreement on a situation, that should then pass the rule. There aren't to many people on TG that gives a **** about any of these rules anymore. Who has the most followers? Make a post and lets do this, start from the first rule on the TG list, we hammer that out until it's hammered out, then move on to the next. Glen, Sroka, Holland, Snowflake, everyone in this thread, link everyone to it and see what happens. It used to be about the scores, now every discussion is about "if it's okay to do this". It sucks.

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  16. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerpoco



    I kinda said before, I lean more toward your thinking on the passwords, but it's just not how it is.

    As Barthax stated, we are talking about a different issue here entirely, and that discussion is welcome...

    Somewhere else.

    I just don't really understand sometimes, why people just feel the need to keep saying something, McCarthy style, hoping it is going to change things?


    My password issue and your default issue are a result of a bigger issue...rules are not clear. They are open for anyone's interpretation. I didn't mean to focus on the password issue, we have a major all rules issue out of date and need updating issue on our hands. I've been talking about it for years on here......hoping it is going to change things but it doesn't. So I have to keep saying things, and so have several other people like @rotunda about modded consoles, because it doesn't seem anyone cares to find a solution.

    I am all about people submitting as many scores as possible, as fair as possible, with the most logical straight to the point way. If using a password to get to something, or loading a save, or simply starting a game is the most direct route to a score, no advantage is gained, I don't give a **** how you "got" to that point, all i care about is oh, lets say "How many points did you score on SMB3". Or, "What was your fastest time on this track". I don't care if you play blind folded, with your toes, outside, inside, all scenarios. Did you have an advantage? No, okay is this the right track? Yep, okay did you submit the correct time? Yep, fantastic that was a badass run!!! That's how I wish things were.

    Lets do this rules thing, lets all change this!! It would be great. This is our TG era, lets do it.

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  17. rotunda's Avatar

    Great to see the rules being discussed finally. As others have mentioned the rules are considerably out of date and far too simple for this era of TG. We have far too many variables and things have some to light, with proof that need a change in the current rule set.

    Good on all of you for making a stand and making things right.

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