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Blackflag82
02-24-2019 at 12:07 PM
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Why does every TG intervention have to come with a messup?

So as some of you may have seen, TG was going to start pushing through submissions that were on the edge. Seems like a good idea, right? Well, is it still a good idea if they just blindly push through submissions?

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/200043-Dispute-Patrick-Stanley-GWR-Rocket-League-Most-goals-scored-in-a-game-(Team-of-three)-Player-Jeff-Fowler-Score-66

Up until a few days ago, based on the public comments two known blind voters represented a majority of the yes cred votes on this submission. The problem? well, the submission was a screen capture while the rules clearly define that camera footage is required. I've brought this to @admin staff 's attention, but also opened a dispute (linked above). Please take a look at it and weigh in on what you think.

Also, this was included on my list of quick submissions the other day, so I apologize to anyone who used that list and voted no on this thing...I would have never expected TG to come in and blind accept a submission in...though maybe I should have


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  1. Snowflake's Avatar

    3 words

    LACK OF TESTING

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  2. RTM's Avatar

    You said "I would have never expected TG to come in and blind accept a submission in...though maybe I should have"


    There were entire blocks of scores accepted without ever having been seen by a TG official merely because someone spotted them on a piece of paper from some remote arcade (such as the dozens from a certain Italy-based arcade discovered in the 2005-2006 range) or third party website (such as the thousands from a certain old NES/SNES score-based website accepted pre-2001 range).

    There have been a lot of questionable scores accepted over the years...I accepted a few myself, some quite well publicized in fact...but those other instances (and there have been more) reflected large blocks of scores accepted at once, none of which was ever TG-verified.

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  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    yeah, i'm aware TG used to do that. I just thought TGSAP would hold up to a higher standard

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  4. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM

    You said "I would have never expected TG to come in and blind accept a submission in...though maybe I should have"


    There were entire blocks of scores accepted without ever having been seen by a TG official merely because someone spotted them on a piece of paper from some remote arcade (such as the dozens from a certain Italy-based arcade discovered in the 2005-2006 range) or third party website (such as the thousands from a certain old NES/SNES score-based website accepted pre-2001 range).

    There have been a lot of questionable scores accepted over the years...I accepted a few myself, some quite well publicized in fact...but those other instances (and there have been more) reflected large blocks of scores accepted at once, none of which was ever TG-verified.


    As Snowflake mentioned, I was referring to the present day...in theory there is an algorithm in play, but in this case, that algorithm got adjusted (without ill intent and with community transparency), but had at least one ill effect. The fact that the dispute system is a limbo for scores to go, is what mainly makes it frustrating to me

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  5. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    This most definitely looks like a sticky situation. In the most recent days (weeks) Twin Galaxies has processed submissions that were on the very edge of completion, but this submission was one to go through organically.

    It is possible that your post prompting people to vote "Reject" pushed it over the edge. However, by that time it would have been too late, and the submission already garnered too many "Yes votes" (from users who have not checked back on the submission since it's initial post) giving it the majority.

    We can see in the comments there is a discussion about the specific GWR rules not being followed in this submission. It looks like the thread is definitely in agreement. It should be a fairly quick and simple dispute to process.

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  6. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

    This most definitely looks like a sticky situation. In the most recent days (weeks) Twin Galaxies has processed submissions that were on the very edge of completion, but this submission was one to go through organically.

    It is possible that your post prompting people to vote "Reject" pushed it over the edge. However, by that time it would have been too late, and the submission already garnered too many "Yes votes" (from users who have not checked back on the submission since it's initial post) giving it the majority.

    We can see in the comments there is a discussion about the specific GWR rules not being followed in this submission. It looks like the thread is definitely in agreement. It should be a fairly quick and simple dispute to process.


    hey twin galaxies, i'm glad to see you're in today. the other really big deal (at least in my opinion) today is the revelation our personal info was all leaked. Can we at least get a confirmation or denial? i understand a thorough longer response may take a while to get just right, but a quick confirm/deny would be apprecaited

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  7. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

    This most definitely looks like a sticky situation. In the most recent days (weeks) Twin Galaxies has processed submissions that were on the very edge of completion, but this submission was one to go through organically.

    It is possible that your post prompting people to vote "Reject" pushed it over the edge. However, by that time it would have been too late, and the submission already garnered too many "Yes votes" (from users who have not checked back on the submission since it's initial post) giving it the majority.

    We can see in the comments there is a discussion about the specific GWR rules not being followed in this submission. It looks like the thread is definitely in agreement. It should be a fairly quick and simple dispute to process.

    Thanks for the response. It definitely is nice to know that this is the case, and my apologies for the accusation that seems un-founded.

    In regards to the dispute, can you confirm that we are going to see more movement on disputes? Because it seems there are an awful lot of open-shut cases over there that havent been dealt with. Is someone other than Dave going to be able to go through and close some of those?

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  8. datagod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES
    It should be a fairly quick and simple dispute to process.

    Just like the ones with missing evidence that have been sitting there for a year now?

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  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    They said it SHOULD be fairly quick and simple never said it WILL be fairly quick and simple
    semantics, learn to idenitfy them
    also, i never said my idea was a good idea

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  10. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

    It should be a fairly quick and simple dispute to process.

    But, I can't dispute. Cause my credibility just got lowered due to this submission. and ditto. That no disputes are quick to be accepted/ overturned based on recent neglect of the TGSAP.

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  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by timmell


    But, I can't dispute. Cause my credibility just got lowered due to this submission. and ditto. That no disputes are quick to be accepted/ overturned based on recent neglect of the TGSAP.


    does it make you feel any better that both me and patrick disputed it though? yep, the whole bug where two people can dispute the same score but of course only one dispute is linked to the score.

    just to prove i know how to reproduce it, i'm thinking of triple disputing a score to make a point. if i can figure out both the bug and solution without even looking at the code what's the programmers excuse?

  12. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by timmell


    But, I can't dispute. Cause my credibility just got lowered due to this submission. and ditto. That no disputes are quick to be accepted/ overturned based on recent neglect of the TGSAP.

    That is a good point Michael, what if my cred got lowered due to an error in adjudication and now I dont have enough to dispute said score and get my cred back?

    I know this isnt ideal but at the moment we have the option to ask another responsable user with enough cred to open the dispute for us, Im sure there is always one around willing to do so. I will do it if a user finds himself in a situation like that and the dispute is fair.

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  13. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    In regards to the dispute, can you confirm that we are going to see more movement on disputes? Because it seems there are an awful lot of open-shut cases over there that havent been dealt with. Is someone other than Dave going to be able to go through and close some of those?

    We recognize that there has been little to no movement within the dispute threads in the recent month, and for that we apologize. Twin Galaxies has been picking up speed on the back end, and the community should start to see more progress in all areas of the website very soon. (We understand the word "soon" might hold little merit at this time)

    @Dave Hawksett continues to be the main point of reference for disputes.

    As far as the comment...

    It should be a fairly quick and simple dispute to process.

    We say this because all disputes are contingent on the voting power gathered to trigger a score removal recommendation. (and in this case a reversal of the submission results)

    Although the dispute looks obvious, we do have a process in place for how these issues are to be handled.

    Your claim will remain open until it achieves enough voting power to close the vote and trigger a score removal recommendation.

    Quote take from this thread: https://www.twingalaxies.com/twin-galaxies/wall/2066/preview-of-the-forthcoming-dispute-system

    Again, we apologize for the extensive delay many tasks and request have experienced in the past months.
    Thank you all for understand.

  14. Barthax's Avatar

    As a gamer that wants to keep scores on the scoreboard as the default action, I commend Twin Galaxies for ensuring a proper dispute process is followed & that evidence is weighed with thought... Unlike TGSAP often is.

  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    We recognize that there has been little to no movement within the dispute threads in the recent month, and for that we apologize. Twin Galaxies has been picking up speed on the back end, and the community should start to see more progress in all areas of the website very soon. (We understand the word "soon" might hold little merit at this time)

    @Dave Hawksett continues to be the main point of reference for disputes.

    As far as the comment...


    We say this because all disputes are contingent on the voting power gathered to trigger a score removal recommendation. (and in this case a reversal of the submission results)

    Although the dispute looks obvious, we do have a process in place for how these issues are to be handled.


    Quote take from this thread: https://www.twingalaxies.com/twin-galaxies/wall/2066/preview-of-the-forthcoming-dispute-system

    Again, we apologize for the extensive delay many tasks and request have experienced in the past months.
    Thank you all for understand.


    lovely link, lets not forget this part

    now like barthax i agree with caution, so i'm hardly suggesting using this provision as an excuse to unliatarelly remove things willy nilly, but in cases where it really is obvious the system allows action

    also, lets not forget the exception about evidence going missing being automatic removal. that one is not at all subjective. either the evidence was removed or it wasnt. and dave himself confirmed that exception was stil in place. so i dont get why removed evidence scores are still lingering

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  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    heres another gem

    hey @Ninglendo and @timmell (and possibly me not sure if i had a chance to donate) remember when you guys founded such a track and it was removed. Man that link above is great!!!!!!

    everyoen please read it, you'll walk away even more upset with how the dispute system is handled once you read all the broken promises linked there

  17. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    so i dont get why removed evidence scores are still lingering


    Standard business practice: cut staff and keep the same work load. :P

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  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax



    Standard business practice: cut staff and keep the same work load. :P


    thats fair. if the only reason they remain is time limits and higher priorites i withdraw my criticism

    for example, i would imagine denying/confirming they doxxed us all must be a pretty high prioirity

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  19. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    We recognize that there has been little to no movement within the dispute threads in the recent month, and for that we apologize. Twin Galaxies has been picking up speed on the back end, and the community should start to see more progress in all areas of the website very soon. (We understand the word "soon" might hold little merit at this time)

    @Dave Hawksett continues to be the main point of reference for disputes.

    As far as the comment...


    We say this because all disputes are contingent on the voting power gathered to trigger a score removal recommendation. (and in this case a reversal of the submission results)

    Although the dispute looks obvious, we do have a process in place for how these issues are to be handled.


    Quote take from this thread: https://www.twingalaxies.com/twin-galaxies/wall/2066/preview-of-the-forthcoming-dispute-system

    Again, we apologize for the extensive delay many tasks and request have experienced in the past months.
    Thank you all for understand.

    @Dave Hawksett

    Hey Dave, instead of showing up once every week or so to contribute a sentence or two to a thread that doesn't even matter and let us know big things are happening, do you think you could just commit half an hour every week to the dispute system so it can have some semblance of functionality? I'm sure in half an hour you could easily move through 3 or four of these since most of them involve pretty straightforward things that don't actually require a vote like disappearing evidence.

    To me this would be a big thing that could actually happen, and seems to have zero chance of creating new bugs on the site.

    That would be rad. thanks!


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  20. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax



    Standard business practice: cut staff and keep the same work load. :P

    Standard Business practice is to cut staff from what important and actually works then move those staff/resources to unrelated stuff such as these great articles about gaming.


    Opps I'm sorry he deeply cares about his Overwatch team just as much as Tom Brady.


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