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Hi Francois,

Q1-5 are answered (I think) by understanding the following:

The "Add Track" option is the correct place to begin creating tracks. The initial cost is 10 Submission Points and that will place the proposed track into the New Track Marketplace for you and the rest of the community to support (add more Submission Points to it).

When there have been enough Submission Points added to a "New Track Marketplace" track two things happen:

- The forum thread is moved to the "Community Founded" section of the forum.

- The track apears on the scoreboard - avilable through Leaderboard and Submissions.

I do not understand Question 6.

We will update this to ensure clarity and to make it more user-friendly.

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Hi Barthax

Thanks for the clarification. I wa looking for a "propossed" track option that would move the track into "new market place". I was hesitant not to make a mistake.

On Question 6:

I did create a track under "Arcade" called "https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/xxx-1-multi-pcb/arcade"

some-time back but now I want to create a new track below this.

When I chooe "Add track" it do show me the option to add derivative track (as owner of the track) but I

cannot add generic rules (greyed out) NOR add speific rules (It do not save/them) to the derivative track, It inherit the parent track rule which messes up the understanding of what rule apply to the parent track and which

to derivative. I notice @Snowflake create derivative tracks below this parent track "pac-man high score

challenge but he was able to ENTER the derivative track's OWN rules. Which then does not inherit the

ones I have created.

So all the derivative tracks I have created do show "pac-man" rules in it which mut not be the case.

This causes confusion for gamers. They think that 5 men are allowed but is not.

I did create a lot of derivative tracks and did enter the "spesific" rules as well but NONE of this do show if you navigate to any derivative track I (Francois du Toit) have created.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/xxx-1-multi-pcb/arcade

So I want to add derivative tracks or new ones below MUTLI-PCB like Snowflake and bensweeneyonbass

did with each game its own rules.

Why can they do it but I cannot?

Can you try and add a derivative track with its own rules where the game spesific rules and the generic rules are edit able and save?

What I wnat to do is add two tracks here for Ms. Pac-Man (Bootleg):

1) Ms. Pac-Man (Bootleg) - All variations of multi PCBs - TGTS Standard rules

Game speific rules:

This will include all PCBs even MAME based ones like ICADE but rules for submission are strict according TGSAP

full video must show continious play and full PCB. Game dip switches set at default TGTS settings of the orginal game. All variotions of Ms. Pac-Man Bootleg ROMS with Ms. Pac-man at standard speed. No speed-up hack allowed. Speedup hack for Bootleg at a different track.

2) Ms. Pac-Man (Bootleg) - Non standard TGTS/TGSAP rules (Open submission)

Game speific rules:

This will include all PCBs even MAME based ones like ICADE but rules for submission are not strict according TGSAP. The full video do not need to show PCB. Game dip switches set at default TGTS settings of the orginal game. All variotions of Ms. Pac-Man Bootleg ROMS with Ms. Pac-man at standard speed. No speed-up hack allowed. Speedup hack for Bootleg at a different track.

This track is to allow for gamers playing even at Shopping Malls and Arcade centres where they cannot video record the PCB. Then the assumption will be that the original PCB was not shown in the video so the submission fall under the "copy of" / "bootleg of" category of that game regardless if the gamer claim it was original cabinet.

/************************************************** ************************************************** ****************/

This will cater for cases where arcade cabinets are hosted at shopping malls where the gamer do not have access to open the cabinet and record inside of the cabinet the PCB.

We did have at the moment a submission on submision forum a ms. pacman Namco recoridng but the gamer cannot submit video of the inside. Due to constraints I want to create tracks so that gamers that do find them in such a situation will also be allowed to sumit at TG but for fun and such records will not be for GWR.

We have to cater for scenarios where full video with PCB cannot be presented. Full video can at least provide to show that the gamer's hands interact with the joytick showing he/shw is actually playing the game with full view of the screen as well. This is to eliminate the case of pre-recorded games hidden in the cabinet.

If we only cater for full restructed TGSAP submisions quite a few gamers playing even at Arcade centres cannot video record the PCB.The at least we have to make the assumption the original PCB was not shown it then

fall under the "copy of" / "bootleg of" category of that game regardless if the gamer claim it was original cabinet.

At least if originality was not shown then it is a "built it yourself".

Will you be able to add the two track for me with the speific correct rule to allow for those submisions?

See below screenshot, I cannot edit or change the rules but & B could?

Regards

Francois du Toit

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Hi Barthax

Thanks for the clarification. I wa looking for a "propossed" track option that would move the track into "new market place". I was hesitant not to make a mistake.

On Question 6:

I did create a track under "Arcade" called "https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/xxx-1-multi-pcb/arcade"

some-time back but now I want to create a new track below this.

When I chooe "Add track" it do show me the option to add derivative track (as owner of the track) but I

cannot add generic rules (greyed out) NOR add speific rules (It do not save/them) to the derivative track, It inherit the parent track rule which messes up the understanding of what rule apply to the parent track and which

to derivative. I notice @Snowflake create derivative tracks below this parent track "pac-man high score

challenge but he was able to ENTER the derivative track's OWN rules. Which then does not inherit the

ones I have created.

So all the derivative tracks I have created do show "pac-man" rules in it which mut not be the case.

This causes confusion for gamers. They think that 5 men are allowed but is not.

I did create a lot of derivative tracks and did enter the "spesific" rules as well but NONE of this do show if you navigate to any derivative track I (Francois du Toit) have created.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/xxx-1-multi-pcb/arcade

So I want to add derivative tracks or new ones below MUTLI-PCB like Snowflake and bensweeneyonbass

did with each game its own rules.

Why can they do it but I cannot?

Can you try and add a derivative track with its own rules where the game spesific rules and the generic rules are edit able and save?

What I wnat to do is add two tracks here for Ms. Pac-Man (Bootleg):

1) Ms. Pac-Man (Bootleg) - All variations of multi PCBs - TGTS Standard rules

Game speific rules:

This will include all PCBs even MAME based ones like ICADE but rules for submission are strict according TGSAP

full video must show continious play and full PCB. Game dip switches set at default TGTS settings of the orginal game. All variotions of Ms. Pac-Man Bootleg ROMS with Ms. Pac-man at standard speed. No speed-up hack allowed. Speedup hack for Bootleg at a different track.

2) Ms. Pac-Man (Bootleg) - Non standard TGTS/TGSAP rules (Open submission)

Game speific rules:

This will include all PCBs even MAME based ones like ICADE but rules for submission are not strict according TGSAP. The full video do not need to show PCB. Game dip switches set at default TGTS settings of the orginal game. All variotions of Ms. Pac-Man Bootleg ROMS with Ms. Pac-man at standard speed. No speed-up hack allowed. Speedup hack for Bootleg at a different track.

This track is to allow for gamers playing even at Shopping Malls and Arcade centres where they cannot video record the PCB. Then the assumption will be that the original PCB was not shown in the video so the submission fall under the "copy of" / "bootleg of" category of that game regardless if the gamer claim it was original cabinet.

/************************************************** ************************************************** ****************/

This will cater for cases where arcade cabinets are hosted at shopping malls where the gamer do not have access to open the cabinet and record inside of the cabinet the PCB.

We did have at the moment a submission on submision forum a ms. pacman Namco recoridng but the gamer cannot submit video of the inside. Due to constraints I want to create tracks so that gamers that do find them in such a situation will also be allowed to sumit at TG but for fun and such records will not be for GWR.

We have to cater for scenarios where full video with PCB cannot be presented. Full video can at least provide to show that the gamer's hands interact with the joytick showing he/shw is actually playing the game with full view of the screen as well. This is to eliminate the case of pre-recorded games hidden in the cabinet.

If we only cater for full restructed TGSAP submisions quite a few gamers playing even at Arcade centres cannot video record the PCB.The at least we have to make the assumption the original PCB was not shown it then

fall under the "copy of" / "bootleg of" category of that game regardless if the gamer claim it was original cabinet.

At least if originality was not shown then it is a "built it yourself".

Will you be able to add the two track for me with the speific correct rule to allow for those submisions?

See below screenshot, I cannot edit or change the rules but & B could?

Regards

Francois du Toit

Hello Francois,

Derivative tracks will always having the same rule set as their parent tracks. This cannot be changed. The option to create a derivative track was introduced to cater to games with multiple levels (such as Angry Birds) where the only detail on the track that would be changed would be the title. We made the decision to not "charge" submission points for this.

If you wish to create a new track for a game with an entirely new rule set, you will need to purpose a new track to the Marketplace and it will need to fund as any new track would need to be.

Barthax liked this post

Hi TG

Thanks very much for your prompt response but you did not fully answer my question.

Why snowflake and bensweeny can add tracks to MULTI-XXX and do have the

option/mechanism enabled to "ADD" game spesific rules even if it is under MULTI-XXX.

So then please explain me step by step how do I add new tracks below MULTI-XXX.

I do not want to add derivative tracks below "Pac-man high score" challenge at all.

The problme is (look at my screenshot) there is no option to select MULTI-XXX

and add tracks below it? Why not? So what options are snowflake an bensweeeny

do have what I do not see?

So the problem was becasue i do not 'see" any other/alternative way of adding games

below MULTI-XXX I have thought that derivative tracks is the means to do so.

Please explain step by step what options i have to select or type do add tracks

below MULTI-XXX.

This will aid in other gamers who tuck with the same problem where this i not clear

anywhere in the help section nor in any forum post.

Regards

Francois du Toit

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Hi TG

Thanks very much for your prompt response but you did not fully answer my question.

Why snowflake and bensweeny can add tracks to MULTI-XXX and do have the

option/mechanism enabled to "ADD" game spesific rules even if it is under MULTI-XXX.

So then please explain me step by step how do I add new tracks below MULTI-XXX.

I do not want to add derivative tracks below "Pac-man high score" challenge at all.

The problme is (look at my screenshot) there is no option to select MULTI-XXX

and add tracks below it? Why not? So what options are snowflake an bensweeeny

do have what I do not see?

So the problem was becasue i do not 'see" any other/alternative way of adding games

below MULTI-XXX I have thought that derivative tracks is the means to do so.

Please explain step by step what options i have to select or type do add tracks

below MULTI-XXX.

This will aid in other gamers who tuck with the same problem where this i not clear

anywhere in the help section nor in any forum post.

Regards

Francois du Toit

Hi Francois,

The game is called "XXX-1 Multi" not "Multi-XXX".

Hi Barthax

Sorry, just a typo my original link to the track was correct. I ask this in principle how can I add new tracks below XXX-1 Multi PCB (The name is trivial, only in essence if one use the name for exact search.) Thanks for looking.

Can you add a dummy track and cancel and see if you can add game below like snowflake and bensweeny can?

You understand what I am asking, right?

Track is here:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/xxx-1-multi-pcb/arcade

See below screenshot how the Ladybug game is created below "XXX-1-multi-pcb"

got its own rules. I cannot do that although I am the creator of

the "XXX-1-Multi-PCB" track. Why can they or you do this?

I notice the game track they (snowflake and bensweeney) have created do have all the rule like the screenshot below. Allmost also a generic set of rules but the game tracks I create all of them inherit the

parent "pac-man high score challenge" rules. How come they was able to have those

generic rule how in the "track rules"

Parent Track:

Track I have created only inherit the parent rule etc, see below (Different behaviour if snowflake/bensweeney) did load/create a game?

When I create a derivative track that section is always "non-edtable" in their case, I think the "generic rules"

were "copied" by the TG track engine. So maybe a bug on TG side?

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Barthax liked this post

Hi Francois,

I think I understand the "big picture" now. There are only two original tracks created as you mention.

1500points ; francoisadt : https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/149792-Arcade-XXX-1-Multi-PCB-Pac-Man-High-Score-Challenge!

bensweeneyonbass ; Snowflake : https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/179670-Arcade-XXX-1-Multi-PCB-Strikers-1945-Points-(Single-Player)

All of the derivative track rules that you create will duplicate _your_ track always.

All of the derivative track rules that ben/snow create will duplicate _their_ track always.

You did not sponsor Ben's track so have no right to copy their track.

The only way you can create a track using _their_ rules is to spend the 10 Submission Points to begin creating a new track again (see my answers to Q1-5). After that is sponsored, you will have a choice of two XXX-1 Multi options in the drop-down list of your Add Track.

Hope that helps, Francois.

Hi Barthax

Ah, ha, I will try to I understand what you mean. Lets put this in practice.

Just now I have created a derivative track Pac-Man (Bootleg) under Pac-man high score challenge

BUT... now I do not see any track in "new market place" nor under "community founded tracks?

When does it move to here?

So where do I see the track must be sponsored? which forum?

Nowhere I do see a screen to fund /sponsor the track?

Nowhere I do see drop-downs of two MULTI options?

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Hi Barthax

Ah, ha, I will try to I understand what you mean. Lets put this in practice.

Just now I have created a derivative track Pac-Man (Bootleg) under Pac-man high score challenge

BUT... now I do not see any track in "new market place" nor under "community founded tracks?

When does it move to here?

So where do I see the track must be sponsored? which forum?

Nowhere I do see a screen to fund /sponsor the track?

Nowhere I do see drop-downs of two MULTI options?

Ah, not derivative track. So the original track has already gone through the new market place and community found tracks. Derivative tracks need no such process. A derivative track will just get added to the scoreboard only using the rules of the original track: https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/xxx-1-multi-pcb/arcade/pac-man-high-score-bootleg-pcb-variation-no-original-pcb/page/1?ref=fbshare

To generate a new set of rules which you (or new sponsors) have control over, the new track must be added through Add Track with no derivative option (no not tick the box).

Let me describe the process with how Rodrigo and I are creating tracks for Angry Birds - same rules, different sponsors. It will take me a little bit to get the facts together.

OK, so I started two tracks - one for Angry Birds Seasons and one for Angry Birds Rio. These were done with the tick box disabled.

Angry Birds Seasons, Trick or Treat - 1-1: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/142751-Android-Angry-Birds-Seasons-Trick-or-Treat-1-1

Angry Birds Rio, Smuggler's Den - 1: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/142752-Android-Angry-Birds-Rio-Rio-Smuggler-s-Den-1

On the scoreboard we can see that ssdninja ; Barthax ; Marcade are sponsors for "Trick or Treat - 1-1" for Angry Birds Seasons and "ssdninja ; Barthax ; Marcade" are sponsors of "Smuggler's Den - 1" for Angry Birds Rio.

Rodrigo is not a sponsor of these tracks so he was not permitted to create derivative tracks for these.

Instead, Rodrigo used the Add Track with the tick box disabled to add to brand new tracks (10 SP each) into the Track Marketplace.

Angry Birds Seasons, Summer Camp 1-1 : https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/172001-Android-Angry-Birds-Seasons-Summer-Camp-1-1

Angry Birds Rio, Rio 2 - Rocket Rumble - 1: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/189935-Android-Angry-Birds-Rio-Rio-2-Rocket-Rumble-1

On the scoreboard we can see that Siliconian is the only sponsor of "Summer Camp - 1-1" for Angry Birds Seasons (he used all 35 SP) and that Pixe Sukola ; Siliconian are the sponsors of "Rio 2 - Rocket Rumble - 1" for Angry Birds Rio.

So, I cannot create derivative tracks from Summar Camp - 1-1 or Rio 2 - Rocket Rumble - 1 and Rodrigo cannot create derivative tracks from Trick or Treat 1-1 or Smuggler's Den - 1. However, we both used the same Rules and so it looks like we can...

Ok, I see, wait you have

Game Name	Angry Birds Seasons
Description	Summer Camp - 1-1

Game Name	Angry Birds Seasons
Description	Trick or Treat - 1-1

So the "Game Name" is the same. I do not see "Game Name" as an option drop down.

So if I put in the same "game name" typed in with exact same syntax.

"XXX-1 Multi-PCB"

Game Name	XXX-1 Multi-PCB
Description	"New Game Name Here"

Will the TG site not see this as a duplicate but put "New Game Name Here" below

"XXX-1 Multi-PCB"?

How did you create "Trick or Treat - 1-1" below "Angry Birds Seasons" if "Angry Birds Seasons" already exist by the creation of the first game "Summer Camp - 1-1"?

@TWIN"> @TG, @TWIN GALAXIES :

Can we assume TG site do have the intelligence built in not to re-create "XXX-1 Multi-PCB" but "see/match"

the [GAME NAME] text to be the same as what is in the database and therefore automatically create the sub-entry below this?

Originally Posted by francoisadt

Ok, I see, wait you have

Game Name	Angry Birds Seasons
Description	Summer Camp - 1-1

Game Name	Angry Birds Seasons
Description	Trick or Treat - 1-1

So the "Game Name" is the same. I do not see "Game Name" as an option drop down.

So if I put in the same "game name" typed in with exact same syntax.

"XXX-1 Multi-PCB"

Game Name	XXX-1 Multi-PCB
Description	"New Game Name Here"

Will the TG site not see this as a duplicate but put "New Game Name Here" below

"XXX-1 Multi-PCB"?

How did you create "Trick or Treat - 1-1" below "Angry Birds Seasons" if "Angry Birds Seasons" already exist by the creation of the first game "Summer Camp - 1-1"?

@TG, @TWIN GALAXIES :

Can we assume TG site do have the intelligence built in not to re-create "XXX-1 Multi-PCB" but "see/match"

the [GAME NAME] text to be the same as what is in the database and therefore automatically create the sub-entry below this?

Essentially, yes. It would be best if you type XXX and then wait - as in my earlier screenshot you will be offered a list of games which match, so just select it then. Otherwise, as you have it in the screenshot. :)

Hi Barthax, now another question before I re-capture the incorrect entries.

I notice that my and 1500points understanding of loading/creating the tracks and games

were incorrect.

We should not have labelled the [Game Name] as "MULTI-1-PCB", which is the actual platform.

We should have created entries for each game prefixed with the platform.

It should at least be loaded with the [Name of the Game] as part of the [GAMENAME] field entry

and not as part of the [DESCRIPTION] entry, as this:

Game One "Ms. Pac-Man, created as:

===============================

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB Ms. Pac-Man"

[Description] = "Normal speed, 3 lives, TGTS

with derivative track as:

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB Ms. Pac-Man"

[Description] = "Speedup, 3 lives, TGTS

Game Two "Galaga", created as:

============================

Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB Galaga"

[Description] = "Normal speed, 3 lives, TGTS

with derivative track as:

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB Galaga"

[Description] = "Fast Fire, 3 lives, TGTS

Currently XXX-MULTI-PCB is under the Arcade platform should this not be rather its own platform?

Which can be multi-rom PCBs, some of them ICADE (MAME based) some of them clones with multiple

roms on a JAMMA PCB. Know, both mechanisms mentioned here are just another way of executing

a copy of the original ROM on non-original PCB. Should we then rather make this a separate platform

first and then add all the game entries listed under the current [XXX-MULITI-PCB] labelled [GAME]

onto the correct/alternative platform?

Another way is "see" these MULTI-PCB as "ARcade" due to the cabinet and arcade controls and then keep keep the current XXX-MULITI-PCB and load correct entries

as per my Ms. Pac-Man / Galaga examples and then delete the incorrect ones (TG need to assist with this major cleanup). I cannot delete entries or move them over from incorrect [GameName] To correct one.

There are about 50 game entries created under MULTI-PCB

I need to move entries from Incorrect to Correct.

This mean:

MOVE OLD ENTRY:

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB"

[Description] = " Ms. Pac-Man Normal speed, 3 lives, TGTS

TO

NEW ENTRY:

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB Ms. Pac-Man"

[Description] = "Normal speed, 3 lives, TGTS

[Own Correct Rules]

What will be the best option. OPTION 1 or OPTION 2?

WHat will the approach be for each option because there will co-exist double entries.

Old and new, old to be removed by TG and old entries containing submitted games move to new

game-track.

Must I draw up an excel spreadsheet showing each step.

Before doing that which OPTION - "New Platform" for MULTI-PCB vs "Keep Existing - But load new entries only]"

To create new platform TG must decide. Please advise next step @TWIN"> @Barthax " @Barthax

Hi Francois,

In my opinion the thing that is bought/played (the PCB) is the [GAME] on the scoreboard. It is one unit and has many options on it. Those options should be [DESCRIPTION] - Ms. Pac-Man, Pac-Man, etc. are in the Description. So I would say that the following is correct:

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB"

[Description] = " Ms. Pac-Man - Normal speed, 3 lives, TGTS

Originally Posted by Barthax

Hi Francois,

In my opinion the thing that is bought/played (the PCB) is the [GAME] on the scoreboard. It is one unit and has many options on it. Those options should be [DESCRIPTION] - Ms. Pac-Man, Pac-Man, etc. are in the Description. So I would say that the following is correct:

[Game Name] = "XXX-MULTI-PCB"

[Description] = " Ms. Pac-Man - Normal speed, 3 lives, TGTS

Hi Barthax

The problem is, the actual game "Ms. Pac-Man on the multi-pcb is not searchable or found. Due to the Game Name in the [DESCRIPTION] field and not in the [GAMENAME] field.

Look at the resulting screen result - when searching for ms. pac-man under "Arcade" only the two entries coming up and not MULTI-PCB at all becuase the [game] is hidden under description.

If you look under Ms. Pac-Man Arcade the [GAMENAME] is called not "PCB' but Ms. Pac-Man

So here I want this to be consistent. Comparing Arcade entry to MULTI-PCB.

Currently Under Arcade Original:

Arcade (platform) => Ms. Pac-Man (GameName) => Description (Points [Factory Speed])

To make this the same Arcade/Multi-PCB:

Arcade (platform) => MULTI-PCB - Ms. Pac-Man (GameName) => Description (Points [Factory Speed])

So now the the name reflects that the MULTI-PCB contain a Ms. Pac-Man [game] and then it will show up

on all the searches.

With this any MULTI-PCB containing the ROM Ms. Pac-Man qualify to be used and it is not hidden.

More and more gamers found these multi-pcb to be existant in Arcade-centres. So I want to

make it easy to found these tracks and easy to submit.

Also look at Namco Reunion, here Ms. Pac-Man / Galaga is the game name:

and

[DESCRIPTION] contains =>

"Galaga - Points [Fast Shot Speed]"

So therefore I do feel my analogy is valid.

Do you think my reasoning is valid?

Hi Francois,

At this point you are discussing a failing of the scoreboard and your own personal opinion on how to get around that failing in the scoreboard. I can only advise that you should discuss that directly with TG.

I will reiterate: the PCB is the "game" in the current scoreboard ethos. Ms. Pac-Man is a sub-category of that game and as such should be included in the Description field.

Hi Barthax

Thanks, this problem I will discuss with TG, that the search function do not pick up games where we have multiple games packaged together under a [game] where the [gamename] will not reflect (show in searches) the games that could be played.

Interesting that [game] in this case is the PCB name. I did not understood this as being the case but the [game] you referring to is the [machine name] or device name. So I am still thinking about it if this view is correct or not.

I will look at other platform and tracks on TG if this is the case and compare.

I did post many times to the "score board" error forum before and no response after a year to fix it by TG.

So what is my best bet/chance to communicate to them and whom must I sent a message to.

Many gamers want to submit games against xxx-xmulti pcb but due to entries incorrectly loaded and rules not reflecting, what are my options..?

Regards

Fdt

Hi Barthax

I will continue with OPTION2 as you suggested for now. To do this I will ask TG if I may continue load / create the tracks so long and then they delete the incorrect created tracks (incorerct inheritted rules from parent ones). Or must TG first delete those tracks then I re-create them with correct rules without selecting the " I am a track founder " option selected.

In the mean-time I will still research/look across the platforms how these are loaded.

If TG cannot in the forseeable future change their track search function to also "search"

in the [DESCRIPTION] field as well. Then we have a big problem as quite a few games

will be loaded like this.