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DadsGlasses
01-23-2018 at 01:02 PM
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Pre- TGSAP Scores should be archived

I’m now of the opinion that any and all preTGSAP scores should be archived and removed. Any score that does not contain video footage stored within TG database should be archived and removed*. (Find a solution to archiving YouTube submissions so that everyone has an opportunity to participate.)

The dispute system is a joke when it comes to preTGSAP scores. Many of us predicted that this would be the case. The dispute system is not improving the perception of integrity within the legacy Arcade/Console database. The reverse is happening.

This post is not intended to be toxic in nature.

*EDIT: Removed is not the right term. Archived and “moved” to a dedicated location for PreTGSAP scores.
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  1. RaGe's Avatar
    I have many pre-TGSAP scores, some that I'm very proud of (there's a good chance I wouldn't be able to duplicate some). While "archived" isn't "deleted", it's still lessened being out of the main score area. I know all of your scores are TGSAP, Rob. Picture yourself with scores you're very proud of, some maybe a once-in-a-lifetime score that are pre-TGSAP. Would you still feel the same way?
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  2. Snowflake's Avatar
    I do feel for guys like you RaGe, marcade is another one i'm sure is worthy, barthax seems updstanding too, plus who knows how many others were good that I just never get the chance to know in the present.

    Even still, your valid scores were verified by an unstrustworhty system. I mean, I have a lot of scores I wrote down on paper, and I'm sure you trust me, but should those scores be in? For me its not so much as i dont trust you as unfortunatley the system verifying you had no credibility.

    I'd be happy with just more metris. Leave the old records, since no doubt some were real, at the same time though, if someone has the highest TGSAP record then that should really mean something to. I'd like to see not just "WR" count but "TGSAP WR count".

    I mean really, no matter how honest you are, what record system can you name other than TG just lets people enter their own scores and others scores with zero proof? If i had old TG scores I might actually prefer they be removed just so that I dont get lumped in with those other guys. Heck, if i knew of how bad things were i wouldnt have come here in the first place, but its kinda becom such a big part of mylife to late to leave now
  3. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by RaGe
    I have many pre-TGSAP scores, some that I'm very proud of (there's a good chance I wouldn't be able to duplicate some). While "archived" isn't "deleted", it's still lessened being out of the main score area. I know all of your scores are TGSAP, Rob. Picture yourself with scores you're very proud of, some maybe a once-in-a-lifetime score that are pre-TGSAP. Would you still feel the same way?
    I have asked myself that question. I would feel the same as I do now.

    As you indicate, I am not suggesting that PreTGSAP scores be deleted. I’m simply suggesting that I now feel they should be archived and preserved for what they are: records that were set prior to current TGSAP standards. In doing so, the Legacy Arcade and Console scoreboard might have a chance at being viewed with some level of integrity. Hopefully the overwhelming number of legitimate scores would outweigh the relatively small, but unknown, number of illegitimate scores. As it stands now, the focus is on everything negative that exists within the Legacy Arcade and Console scores.

    A preTGSAP score is something that the record setter should be proud of. I am in no way undermining the importance of that achievement. But the reality is that the score does not meet current standards. As such, it cannot be efficiently disputed should the need arise. (The dispute system has demonstrated that it is ineffective at dealing with preTGSAP score disputes.)


    *As a post script, it should be noted that I am pretty apathetic towards my own scores. I’m not overly proud of them and I don’t place much value in a “TG record”. Maybe I would feel differently towards the entire process if I had more pride in my scores.
  4. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by RaGe
    Picture yourself with scores you're very proud of, some maybe a once-in-a-lifetime score that are pre-TGSAP. Would you still feel the same way?
    I can’t answer this truthfully, because I don’t have any “once in a lifetime” scores. I’m not a very skilled gamer. Many of my best scores are not represented here on TG because either I wasn’t filming, or I have chosen not to submit. Maybe I would feel differently if that was the case. It’s a very fair question, but I can’t provide an honest answer.
  5. Marcade's Avatar
    Each any every "legitimate" score COUNTS...(no matter under what verifications method it was handled under. In a micro-management sense, specific scores that are presently scrutinized, needs to be examined, or disputed with "proof and evidence", as the way the system is set up today.
    Circumstantial evidence means nothing, BUT that was the only way it was done back in that day, a referee verified a video, or photographic evidence (at times prior to my own).

    Like what RaGe said, some of my own mean a lot as well, and some dont. Eg. My Atari 2600 max-outs I take great pride in, as I beat the game, and I want others to follow along in the footsteps afterwards. ( a max-out club I call it) ... I love that this can be documented under the strictest guidelines.

    I strongly estimate that 2-3% of all scores in the entire TG database are either 1) outright "Bogus", 2) followed a different rule set that was changed, OR simply not played under "normal playing conditions".

    Why should the other 97-98% suffer the fate of those historical scores?
    Starting over, is like saying, Babe Ruth passed away many many years ago, and the game has changed its rules and regulations since his day, so therefore his HR record before Hank Aaron will not count now.

    Barry Bonds? Did he cheat? Illegal enhanced drugs? You strip him of his HR record, with an asterisk to his name for life !!!
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    Updated 01-23-2018 at 02:13 PM by Marcade
  6. sdwyer138's Avatar
    I get your frustration, but I can't agree with your points.

    There were a couple of pre-TGSAP scores that were removed via dispute just today, so I don't think it a complete joke.

    If anything should be archived, I would limit it to scores that were not verified by TG in any capacity. More specifically - the unverified scores that were lifted out of magazines, newsletters, etc. I don't feel great about doing something like that, since I'm sure there are valid scores there, but it at least allows TG to keep it 'all in the family' so to speak.
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  7. RaGe's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    A preTGSAP score is something that the record setter should be proud of. I am in no way undermining the importance of that achievement. But the reality is that the score does not meet current standards. As such, it cannot be efficiently disputed should the need arise. (The dispute system has demonstrated that it is ineffective at dealing with preTGSAP score disputes.)
    This is a good point you made. I have to stick with my above comment though, as I mentioned, I probably can't duplicate some of my scores. To have them designated to a lesser place on the website, would be like a kick in the head. It's a tricky situation. There's probably no answer that would make everyone involved happy.
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  8. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    I can’t comment on how Twin Galaxies compares to the tracking of Home Run records in baseball. I’m not a baseball fan and I don’t know anything about the tracking of baseball stats.

    That said, I believe only stats from legitimate baseball games count towards records. These are games and stats that are part of a historical record and were witnessed. These games were adjudicated by umpires and the box scores are archived.

    If a man was to come forward and say that he hit 1246 home runs in his local men’s league game in 1987, I don’t think many people would bat an eye.

    Tgsap provides a way to archive score performances. These can be disputed if need be. PreTGSAP scores cannot be disputed. By nature, this makes them “not the same”.

    If 97% of the scores are legitimate, then archiving them as such should be a badge of honor, not a mark of negativity.
  9. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    I think the biggest difference occurring here is that I don’t see archiving the records as a negative thing. I don’t see it as a removal and I don’t see it as giving the record “lesser status”. I just see it as pointing out fact: PreTGSAP scores do not have archived video evidence and do not meet current verification standards. As such, they are archived and cannot be disputed.

    In some ways, this helps to protect the integrity of the estimated 97% of scores in the database that are legitimate.
  10. Barthax's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    If 97% of the scores are legitimate, then archiving them as such should be a badge of honor, not a mark of negativity.
    It would also convey "the 30 years of history this scoreboard is founded upon isn't worth the paper [web] it's written on". What for? There's some gremlins in the past? TGSAP has been open to the same misconceptions and mistakes from the start and the Dispute system is equally cleaning up the garbage from TGSAP as it is pre-TGSAP. How many gremlins are there in TGSAP that still haven't been found because someone didn't or failed to correctly identify it at the time of the vote?
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  11. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by RaGe
    This is a good point you made. I have to stick with my above comment though, as I mentioned, I probably can't duplicate some of my scores. To have them designated to a lesser place on the website, would be like a kick in the head. It's a tricky situation. There's probably no answer that would make everyone involved happy.


    Well I certainly don’t want you, or anyone like you, feeling “kicked in the head.” I have the upmost respect for you and your gaming accomplishments. That goes for @Marcade as well.
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  12. Marcade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    Tgsap provides a way to archive score performances. These can be disputed if need be. PreTGSAP scores cannot be disputed. By nature, this makes them “not the same”.
    Last I checked, ANY score/time can be disputed.
    So far, every dispute I have created was Pre-TGSAP.
    (Even one of my own Pre-TGSAP scores, that was a wrong track, I had to create/dispute and prove) AND was eventually removed.
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  13. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax
    It would also convey "the 30 years of history this scoreboard is founded upon isn't worth the paper [web] it's written on". What for? There's some gremlins in the past? TGSAP has been open to the same misconceptions and mistakes from the start and the Dispute system is equally cleaning up the garbage from TGSAP as it is pre-TGSAP. How many gremlins are there in TGSAP that still haven't been found because someone didn't or failed to correctly identify it at the time of the vote?
    Again, it is not my belief that archiving them would destroy 30 years of history. Rather it would preserve 30 years of history. Some of those scores have been set by gamers that aren’t alive to defend themselves. With no evidence left behind, and no gamer to defend his/her score then archiving the score would protect that legacy.
  14. Snowflake's Avatar
    Heres what really help, if someone is found ot have cheated STRIP ALL THEIR SCORES. Dont just help them hide the evidence by removing the few they were caught red handed on. Sure by all means investigate if it was an accident or cheating, but dont just assume accident with no further investigation swallowing up any lie they give to explain their lied about scores.

    Look, most people are consistent. Liars lie a lot. You're not gonna have someone who cheated just a few times. They're gonna cheat alot, and sooner or later one of the cheats is gonna be caught. I do therefore believe we can catch every single cheater. However, whats the point if all we do is destroy the evidence and remove the cheaters one blatantly false score? Strip all the scores of cheaters and then the scores of everyone else gets to mean something.
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  15. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade
    Last I checked, ANY score/time can be disputed.
    So far, every dispute I have created was Pre-TGSAP.
    (Even one of my own Pre-TGSAP scores, that was a wrong track, I had to create/dispute and prove) AND was eventually removed.
    That is my understanding as well. Any score can be disputed. The issue is that PreTGSAP scores do not necessarily have evidence to dispute. (In some cases they don’t even have a living gamer to defend the dispute.) Only successful disputes are “Closed”. Others are left open indefinitely.

    People in this thread have mentioned the stigma of an asterix. Doesn’t an open dispute leave the same negative mark? Archiving the PreTGSAP database protects those scores from that possibility.
  16. Marcade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    Heres what really help, if someone is found ot have cheated STRIP ALL THEIR SCORES. Dont just help them hide the evidence by removing the few they were caught red handed on. Sure by all means investigate if it was an accident or cheating, but dont just assume accident with no further investigation swallowing up any lie they give to explain their lied about scores.
    100% agree with that!!!
    Cheaters get the "scarlet letter" for life!
    (Thank God most, if not all of them, are already gone, or have been dealt with already)
  17. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    if someone is found ot have cheated STRIP ALL THEIR SCORES.
    My understanding is that is the standard policy?
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  18. Marcade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    That is my understanding as well. Any score can be disputed. The issue is that PreTGSAP scores do not necessarily have evidence to dispute. (In some cases they don’t even have a living gamer to defend the dispute.) Only successful disputes are “Closed”. Others are left open indefinitely.

    People in this thread have mentioned the stigma of an asterix. Doesn’t an open dispute leave the same negative mark? Archiving the PreTGSAP database protects those scores from that possibility.
    I guess we shall agree to disagree. Heh.
    I believe it is the other way around. On a case to case basis, as we have it now. WE, as peer review adjudicators, must PROVE a score is no good.

    I do agree with you about the "negative mark". That was my stigma mantra BTW. ;)
    (yes, its always out there, unless TG decides to one day purge the dispute system and their threads) THAT would really p.i.s.s. me off!
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  19. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    My understanding is that is the standard policy?
    so they claim, without rehashing old drama i'll ask you to visit the dispute the thread, see some of the old scores and you tell me if you buy the bogus explanation for the "accident"
  20. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    so they claim, without rehashing old drama i'll ask you to visit the dispute the thread, see some of the old scores and you tell me if you buy the bogus explanation for the "accident"
    My sarcasm on that one didn’t come across. I agree with you.
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