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DadsGlasses
01-23-2018 at 01:02 PM
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Pre- TGSAP Scores should be archived

I’m now of the opinion that any and all preTGSAP scores should be archived and removed. Any score that does not contain video footage stored within TG database should be archived and removed*. (Find a solution to archiving YouTube submissions so that everyone has an opportunity to participate.)

The dispute system is a joke when it comes to preTGSAP scores. Many of us predicted that this would be the case. The dispute system is not improving the perception of integrity within the legacy Arcade/Console database. The reverse is happening.

This post is not intended to be toxic in nature.

*EDIT: Removed is not the right term. Archived and “moved” to a dedicated location for PreTGSAP scores.
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  1. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade
    (yes, its always out there, unless TG decides to one day purge the dispute system and their threads) THAT would really p.i.s.s. me off!

    This is why I don’t understand why TG is editing and censoring dispute threads. What was initially supposed to be a “permanent and transparent” record is now being selectively edited. This can potentially create problems for a PreTGSAP score that doesn’t have archived evidence.
  2. HugDD's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax
    It would also convey "the 30 years of history this scoreboard is founded upon isn't worth the paper [web] it's written on". What for? There's some gremlins in the past? TGSAP has been open to the same misconceptions and mistakes from the start and the Dispute system is equally cleaning up the garbage from TGSAP as it is pre-TGSAP. How many gremlins are there in TGSAP that still haven't been found because someone didn't or failed to correctly identify it at the time of the vote?
    Pete's a real trooper here, and what he says, I agree. I'm the one responsible for getting two of his TGSAP (I've only disputed about three scores, and they're all TGSAP) successfully situated. In both, jjt_defender commented in the original threads with Accepted, and his usual routine of screen shots, mass text, and so forth, completely missing the reason why the run/score were invalid. I'd gotten tired of it, so I didn't comment in those threads, and neither did anyone else. Pete's fond of, and has been supportive of Juan. That inevitably led me to be attacked by jjt, which I ignored, sigh.

    At any rate, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts Robert. Like many others, I don't agree with this notion. I've often put it in life, you're going to pretty much always have folks who engage negatively in various faucets, that seems to impact everyone else, even on a score tracking site such as this, that most of the world would care less about. That said, I'm going to close with this score page that I have my lone score verified on Twin Galaxies, just state for the record which ones I'm convinced are legit (that is, straight shoot'em up style, no blob, Centipede trap, nor other slow down strats): https://www.twingalaxies.com/centiped...ment-settings/ (legit: Don's, James Schneider's, Edward Ray's, mine, Ben's, and all those after Ben's)

    Happy New Year mate, hope this 2018 finds you in the best health and all ever! :)

    -Duc
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  3. Snowflake's Avatar
    While some TGSAP scores didnt get caught right away, I think theres a world of difference with mistakes not being caught and people just outright lying making up scores for themselves and buddies. Even making up scores on games they likely never even watched played since they didnt even know how the scoring system worked.

    Also the tgsap scores that were known were quickly disputed. And if anyone else brings to light a problem score i'm sure it'll be quickly disputed. The fake scores in the pre-tgsap score were known to be fake and nothing was done. People within TG complained and got slammed for it, people on other sites complained. The fake scores were well known yet TG proudly kept adding more fakes in. I think thats very different from the few fake scores that slip by today. One is a mistake that can happen anywhere and once is a sytem of corrutpion -- and dont twist my words, i'm not saying everyone in the system was corrupt, i am saying the system itself was though.
  4. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar
    I can understand why the pre TGSAP scores are viewed in a skeptical manner given the doubt placed on the validity of some scores back in the day. I've been a member of Twin Galaxies for about 10 years as a submitter and like some of the other old timers, my best guess is less than 5% of the scores are questionable. Most of these probably fall in the typo and improper game settings. Even less common are the collusion, falsification, or 'special' tactic situations. Its also my opinion that the further back you go in the lifespan of the scoreboard, the more doubt I have on the achievement. Just like everything else, the adjudication systems evolved over time and with each iteration, it got better.

    I'm at the point that I'm done making suggestions on how to improve this site. Here goes nothing.....

    Since the scoreboard is supported by a backend database, why not utilize filters in some of the frontend views / forms to allow members to see what they want. If you only place reliance on submission adjudicated under TGSAP, select the appropriate drop down and you can view the scoreboard how you like. Do you like all adjudication except photographs? Just deselect photograph from the filter. This will only impact the view and not the record count or ESI number. The dispute system will still be used to persuade the administrators to remove the score for record count and ESI purpose.
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  5. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by MyOwnWorstEnemy
    I can understand why the pre TGSAP scores are viewed in a skeptical manner given the doubt placed on the validity of some scores back in the day. I've been a member of Twin Galaxies for about 10 years as a submitter and like some of the other old timers, my best guess is less than 5% of the scores are questionable. Most of these probably fall in the typo and improper game settings. Even less common are the collusion, falsification, or 'special' tactic situations. Its also my opinion that the further back you go in the lifespan of the scoreboard, the more doubt I have on the achievement. Just like everything else, the adjudication systems evolved over time and with each iteration, it got better.

    I'm at the point that I'm done making suggestions on how to improve this site. Here goes nothing.....

    Since the scoreboard is supported by a backend database, why not utilize filters in some of the frontend views / forms to allow members to see what they want. If you only place reliance on submission adjudicated under TGSAP, select the appropriate drop down and you can view the scoreboard how you like. Do you like all adjudication except photographs? Just deselect photograph from the filter. This will only impact the view and not the record count or ESI number. The dispute system will still be used to persuade the administrators to remove the score for record count and ESI purpose.
    That seems like an excellent suggestion.
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  6. Snowflake's Avatar
    thats definitely how i treat the scoreboard when talking with friends and when just looking for my own curiosity. I see pre-tgsap as simliar to the scores that come on NES games ahead of time that arent real, but tgsap scores as the scores humans actually did.
  7. Jace Hall's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by MyOwnWorstEnemy
    Since the scoreboard is supported by a backend database, why not utilize filters in some of the frontend views / forms to allow members to see what they want. If you only place reliance on submission adjudicated under TGSAP, select the appropriate drop down and you can view the scoreboard how you like. Do you like all adjudication except photographs? Just deselect photograph from the filter. This will only impact the view and not the record count or ESI number. The dispute system will still be used to persuade the administrators to remove the score for record count and ESI purpose.
    Yes that's been on the list for a while. Other engineering items are ahead of it, that's all.
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  8. thegamer1185's Avatar
    Now that I've read everything here, I can honestly say there is not one thing I could agree or disagree to. You all make strong points for your side, none of them outweighing the other IMO. Which leads me to my conclusion that means everything is in balance right now. The old is intermixed with the new. We all like and dislike things from the old and new. Once TG gets some of these functions that is making a few things difficult to navigate, some policies and tracks adjusted/re-written I think we are all good. I've got my issues some of the things at the moment, but in the end I believe it will all be for the better.

    The one thing I can say I completely agree and could argue for is what Glasses had to say, the old TG scores are viewed as nothing but negative at the moment and it makes TG as a whole look bad. It does. It sucks. It is what is right now. None of the old scores are "trusted". This has nothing to do with the submitter or you fine gentleman who played back then. It's the old system we don't trust. If you read that last sentence and where offended, please re-read so you know I was not saying you players aren't to trust, it was the system that was not trustworthy.

    Well, it took 5.51 minutes to write this. Better call it a day. Good gaming everybody.
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  9. Marcade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    Well, it took 5.51 minutes to write this. Better call it a day. Good gaming everybody.
    And it took me 5.51 seconds to read...Amazing coincidence! ;)
    Sorry, I cant prove it, as i didnt take a polaroid! TRUST ME!
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  10. CWK's Avatar
    I don't care remove every score, this site has pretty much become a joke. I have most of my mame inp files but I don't know for how long. I'll submit if someone cares for some real genuine scores to be documented
  11. Snowflake's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by CWK
    I don't care remove every score, this site has pretty much become a joke. I have most of my mame inp files but I don't know for how long. I'll submit if someone cares for some real genuine scores to be documented
    i think one of the best things @redelf did was resubmit his scorse. He didnt have to, but he set a great example doing so. I just think its too bad the date gets ruined so it looks like he doesnt have the record for as long as he really did it. If my virtual high five means anything, I give it to everyone who resubmits their old stuff.
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  12. Marcade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    i think one of the best things @redelf did was resubmit his scorse. He didnt have to, but he set a great example doing so. I just think its too bad the date gets ruined so it looks like he doesnt have the record for as long as he really did it. If my virtual high five means anything, I give it to everyone who resubmits their old stuff.
    Its a great idea...I am always trying to improve my PRE-TGSAP scores/times as well!
  13. Barthax's Avatar
    One more thing to remember is the ruinous nature of labeling someone a cheat. This is especially true about old scores: it was a different culture the further back you go. The "thinking outside the box" that speed runners do is nothing new: the same thing goes back to older and older scores. It's easy to point the finger at an old score today with a bunch modern rules and say "that's not in the spirit" or similar (switching difficulty mid-run, for example): that's a modern (TG ruling) concept that didn't out-right apply to scores pre-~2000. So while disputes may be correct, the gamer didn't cheat - they were just playing as it was back then.
  14. Snowflake's Avatar
    Im pretty much fine with any play style you know as long as it was actual play and not just made up scores
  15. redelf's Avatar
    I have mixed feelings about archiving the scoreboard. It would be nice to only have TGSAP so that you could be way more certain that the score is legit. The scoreboard would be very empty and wouldn't mean as much as it does in it's present form. Sure there are 100's of bogus scores and even more if you also count the number of miscellaneous errors, wrong track, old rules, wrong settings, wrong board set or rom. There are some that don't really matter to me because I may never have heard or played the game and it doesn't affect me in a personal way. I'm guessing that many of us have that same thought. But that score that you really don't have much interest in will matter to someone else and therefore it should matter to all concerned. The ones that matter the most though are the #1 scores and the impossible scores. The #13 or #7 score I just don't really care if it does or doesn't get removed if we don't know anything about it. If we have suspicions or some knowledge about that #13 or #7 score then we should by all means go after it.

    Some scores matter more than others and the ones that any one individual really cares about needs to be taken more seriously. We can't catch all the bogus scores, but we can at least start cleaning things up through the dispute system. I don't believe that TG should be the only executioner in the dispute process though. How that system is set up now isn't the best way to go about it IMO. I'd like to see a rating scale of your vote. You know like those crazy mental exams doctors give you. 1 - Strongly agree 2 - Agree 3 - Not sure 4 - Disagree 5 - Strongly Disagree. If enough people voted 1 then the community should be able to remove the score without the interaction of TG having the final word. But if you get mixed votes then it should be more likely that TG should have to intervene. They should have to post that the community doesn't fully agree and that we need more proof or discussion.

    I'm just happy that we are starting to move forward, slowly for sure, maybe faster as time goes on and new stuff is presented or offered to us to help make things better.
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  16. homerwannabee's Avatar
    I say let the scores be, but just put an asterisk saying that there is no video evidence. Having them archived is a bit much.
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