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DadsGlasses
01-30-2018 at 05:33 PM
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Rules, Rules, RULES!!

I have a question for @Dave Hawksett regarding....... you guessed it: Rules!

I am specifically interested in rules for console submissions. The reason I am making this a wall post, as opposed to a direct email, is to allow other members of the community to weigh in.

I think I speak for many when I say that I believe that the rules section of TG needs a major overhaul. I am not implying that I want more rules, or less rules. I simply would like clarification of rules. Many of those issues were previously discussed in the forums that no longer exist.

I am speaking about global rules for console submissions. I am not speaking about specific rules for individual tracks.

New users and old users, and new users that are old, would all benefit from some clarity when it comes to rules.

A few examples that need to be addressed:
- Original hardware
- Flash carts
- Original controllers
- Clone consoles
- Aftermarket controllers
- Submission requirements (showing of controller, wiring, hardware, etc)
- Upscalers
- Video mods
- etc

I know that most people have a good idea of what is and what isn’t generally accepted. That said, I think further clarification would help to streamline the onboarding process for new users. It would also help to clear up some log jams in the queue caused by concerns about rule discrepancies.

I would also propose a means by which members of the community can open a formal dispute regarding certain rules. If a player wants to dispute a rule, then start a dispute. If that dispute gets enough yes votes, then it triggers a formal staff review. (Similar to our score dispute system.)

If you can, please let me know if something of this nature is on the horizon.

Thanks.
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Comments
  1. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    I’m hoping @thegamer1185 can add some commentary here as well. I know he has been asking about some of these issues for quite a while.
  2. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    Absolutely everything regarding rules is up for discussion.
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  3. thegamer1185's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    I’m hoping @thegamer1185 can add some commentary here as well. I know he has been asking about some of these issues for quite a while.
    Haha, you dick! I'll just tell you all to go back and look at most my wall posts that have something in the ball park of "updating" or "rules" in the title and im pretty sure you will find everything I have to say regarding all of these policy updatings. Short answer, I've been pushing this **** for probably close to a year to a year and a half.

    I'd personally like to just see a list. That's it. A list of what you can do on each and every console. If you can use a clone console/controllers/flash carts for every single system in the database. If it's not there and you think it should be, the dispute system, or an add feature system could be implemented. Whatever, update this damn thing already. Todd is gone, start with the very first thing every single person should start at when becoming a member, the rules and policies page.

    Definitely need to hit the video recording and what is and isn't REQUIRED. Don't say its up to the submitter. Make the **** required. There, done. If you want the consoles shown in every submission, fine. Show the console. If you don't care, fine. No one can ever hold it against the submitter if it wasn't shown. Make it rule or don't. NO GREY AREAS. I've got a buddy that will exploit every god damn rule or lack there of in a fantasy football league and every time it comes down to him almost quitting and we never hear the end of it. It's this, or it isn't. No more drama, more gaming. Faster adjudicating would follow as well since we all know the rules. Easy. So easy.

    By the way, I am a strong believer in being able to pause a game for RECORDING purposes. Make it stipulation that you must have some other device showing you stopping and restarting your main recording device. There, done. Now a person (Like myself. Yes I'm being selfish) that has no choice when his recording device stops (exactly 3hrs) has a way to continue their submission, worry free, but also according to rules. Not, well it was allowed back then you could, but it's frowned upon now. But there is nothing that says you can't, even though there is. But I know for a fact this guy did because he recorded himself with another camera so we know he was doing it just to start recording again. RAAAAMMMMMPPPPAAAAGGGEEEE!!!

    Simplify them. Short. To the point. No wiggle room. It says this, it means this. No grey area.

    P.S. You can all blame Rob for this, haha
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    Updated 01-30-2018 at 06:19 PM by thegamer1185
  4. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett
    Absolutely everything regarding rules is up for discussion.
    Great. Thank you!

    I think you will get a taste of what I mean if you navigate to the following:

    -Menu
    -Info
    -Help and Tutorials
    -General Gameplay Global Rules and Guidelines for All Submissions

    You will notice that rule number one states that console submissions require original console with original controller and software.

    That said, we often see submissions using a Flash cart and an aftermarket controller get accepted. At the same time, Clone console submissions get rejected. Many, many records in the database contradict rule # 1. I think it is probably time to re-examine the rule.

    You will then notice that rules number 2 and 4 apparently no longer exist.

    I think it would benefit the entire community to have some clarification in this section. I would love to see a basic standard set for console submissions. I also believe that this clear rules will help with future score disputes.
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  5. Max's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett
    Absolutely everything regarding rules is up for discussion.
    A nice searchable wiki would work. All rule changes could be documented within the document too so everything would be in one single place.

    A wiki for common terms (what is an INP? What is ESI? What does stitching mean? etc.) would be a help too and could be contained within the same wiki.

    One giant searchable wiki to serve us all.
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  6. thegamer1185's Avatar
    Info, Help and Tutorials, Video Game Marathoning, Rule 3.0.b.
    Yeah, this rule stinks. Guess I'll never play anything that last longer than 3 hours. No people, I don't we all need to buy new recording equipment just to allow us to do this. I believe pausing for video recording purposes, something allowed back in the day until the new TG I believe. I'd look at the old forums or search for it but I tried long ago and RTM was the one that told me you COULD pause for recording purposes only. Hence why I keep saying it.

    I'd say you may pause for recording purposes, but you must use a secondary device recording yourself stopping/starting the main recording device. You can can you have a 5 minute time limit or something to that effect. Technically, I know it was somewhere at one point and time you where allowed a 5 minute break for every 3 hours of play. It would only make sense that this time be used for doing other things like stretching, bathroom, whatever. It would all be recorded and show that no tampering occurred because the rules state you MUST USE A SECONDARY DEVICE TO RECORD YOU STOPPING AND STARTING YOUR MAIN RECORDING DEVICE. Therefore, there would be zero dead air in the submission. All things can be reviewed. I'm pretty sure I'm alone on this but just throwing it out there.

    Oh yeah, all those other things I've mentioned many other times as well.
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  7. Snowflake's Avatar
    This doesnt realy sound like a discussion of rules so much as documentation.

    Here's my suggestion on the unrequired requirments like video. Wording is key. If you say "video isnt required but adjudicators can demand it" it feels unrequired. If you say "video is required but in special cases adjudicators can let it slide", then functionally both mean the exact same things, but the latter wording give people a better idea of what they realisitcally need to do to get approved. You can have rules, and give adjudicators freedom all at the same time jut with wording
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  8. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett
    Absolutely everything regarding rules is up for discussion.
    Do you or your staff have any plans to address these issues?

    What is the best way to get a productive discussion started?
  9. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    This doesnt realy sound like a discussion of rules so much as documentation.
    I understand what you are saying, but just so that I am clear this wall post is definitely about rules.

    In discussn rules, we must also discuss how these rules are documented by @TWIN GALAXIES, how they are carried out and demonstrated by players, and how they are enforced by adjudicators.

    Rule Number 1 of the General Gameplay Global Rules and Guidelines for All Submissions is a clear indicator that every aspect that I just mentioned is in question.
  10. thegamer1185's Avatar
    @Dave Hawksett and others. I believe rule 1 in the global guide lines and rules page is permsnenper linked to our recording requirements. Firstly, rule one states it must be original hardware. OK, weall know this is not the case anymore. If we are to enforce that rule to a T, then it must be required that every submission show the console, controller, and cartridge. Good luck direct capture people. Are we going to allow a direct capture submission to be allowed to photograph their equipment?

    There are too many holes to fill (giggity). What I think is OK others may not. I admit I'm much more focused on the eh gameplay than I am all the other stuff, but that's because the rules allow me to be. We need clarification. Either it's all original, which at this point would be impossible to enforce knowing what we all know, or it's everything is allowed except Turbo controllers. For all we know, direct capture people are already doing this and we don't know it.

    Solidify rule 1, then we can discuss recording. Otherwise we would be getting ahead of ourselves like TG has done on some of their features, we will have many bugs to fix while we are trying to implement step 3 when step 1 is still broken.

    So, step one to me is platforms,what are we allowing and not allowing keeping in mind what are going to expect to be required in submission videos. Thoughts?
  11. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    Everything is being addressed. There do seem to be some inconsistencies with rules that affect entire platforms, for example.

    This is already a productive discussion - please keep posting here. Also give us time to collate and discuss. We will open separate discussions for specific issues in order to get some more focused feedback in due course.

    As always, we appreciate how much expertise we have collectively in the community.


    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    Do you or your staff have any plans to address these issues?

    What is the best way to get a productive discussion started?
  12. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    It would be good to get this nailed down, so let’s try and tackle it.

    For example: If we have some platforms for which every track already has used completely original hardware in every single score, it would be easier to enforce this going forward for that platform.

    For platforms where completely original hardware has only been used for some of the scores, a more complex solution would be needed.

    We need to appreciate that not everyone is in agreement about this topic. This could theoretically be something a filtering system would fix.

    Why don’t you start the discussion on a new wall post just about this issue, and we can start getting some more input and ideas on the requirement for original hardware?


    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    @Dave Hawksett and others. I believe rule 1 in the global guide lines and rules page is permsnenper linked to our recording requirements. Firstly, rule one states it must be original hardware. OK, weall know this is not the case anymore. If we are to enforce that rule to a T, then it must be required that every submission show the console, controller, and cartridge. Good luck direct capture people. Are we going to allow a direct capture submission to be allowed to photograph their equipment?

    Solidify rule 1, then we can discuss recording. Otherwise we would be getting ahead of ourselves like TG has done on some of their features, we will have many bugs to fix while we are trying to implement step 3 when step 1 is still broken.

    So, step one to me is platforms,what are we allowing and not allowing keeping in mind what are going to expect to be required in submission videos. Thoughts?
  13. gavv's Avatar
    I'd like to say I think contemporary-to-the-system 3rd party controllers are entirely appropriate to be 'original hardware'. There were plenty of alternatives to the CX-40s of the world (for example) and systems that themselves never had singular native brand controllers (many early computer platforms)
  14. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by gavv
    I'd like to say I think contemporary-to-the-system 3rd party controllers are entirely appropriate to be 'original hardware'. There were plenty of alternatives to the CX-40s of the world (for example) and systems that themselves never had singular native brand controllers (many early computer platforms)

    So just to clarify, would you reject an NES submission that used a wireless controller with a Bluetooth dongle?

    Or a Sega Genesis (1989) Controller on an Atari 2600 (1977) Submission? Or a Flashback (2015) Controller on an Intellivision (1979) Submission?
    Updated 01-31-2018 at 09:04 AM by DadsGlasses
  15. gavv's Avatar
    Sorry for dupe posting
    Updated 01-31-2018 at 09:02 AM by gavv (Duplicate)
  16. gavv's Avatar
    NES example probably would not reject solely around it being wireless. Not unless the controller had anything else built in that gave it a performance advantage beyond a personal ergonomic preference

    2600s we're still being built and sold alongside the genesis, use the same db9 technology, so probably wouldn't reject on that either.
  17. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by gavv
    NES example probably would not reject solely around it being wireless. Not unless the controller had anything else built in that gave it a performance advantage beyond a personal ergonomic preference

    2600s we're still being built and sold alongside the genesis, use the same db9 technology, so probably wouldn't reject on that either.
    Thanks. How about modern Flashback controllers being used with Atari, ColecoVision, and Intellivision?
  18. danman1234's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    Thanks. How about modern Flashback controllers being used with Atari, ColecoVision, and Intellivision?
    I would not reject on this all this old stuff is getting harder and harder to find controllers for and any advantage gained by this is available to anyone.
  19. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234
    I would not reject on this all this old stuff is getting harder and harder to find controllers for and any advantage gained by this is available to anyone.
    So to clarify you would accept any controller as long as gameplay appears ok?
  20. Snowflake's Avatar
    original hardware means original processor.

    If anyone changed the shell on a system, would we really consider that changing the "hardware". Is the physical cart which holds the software whats meant by "hardware". Likewise controllers are not the processor.

    Alternate controllers have been allowed. Flash carts have been allowed. Clone systems have not been allowed. EMU has not been allowed unless explicitly stated.
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