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DadsGlasses
01-31-2018 at 08:32 AM
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Original Hardware Rules

The General Gameplay Global Rules and Guidelines for Submissions is severely outdated.

-Original Hardware
-Original Software
-Original Controllers

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  1. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    We see many, many example throughout the scoreboard that do not meet the criteria of Rule number 1. This creates problems for new users. It also creates potential problems in the Dispute thread.


    I think this rule needs to be clarified and possibly changed to reflect current TG standards.

    I ask the community:

    - How do you define “Original Hardware”?

    - How important is this rule in 2018?

    - What standards must a console/platform meet in order to be considered “original Hardware”?

    (A few things to keep in mind: clone systems, reverse compatible next gen systems, 3rd Party Adapters or expansion modules, etc)

    This particular wall Post will focus on console/platform hardware only. Game software, carts, controllers, etc can be tackled elsewhere.

    Please give feedback
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  2. GibGirl's Avatar
    I see the pic just fine.

    Also, I'd like to toss out this as a suggested principle behind doing this. A goal of enabling criteria for fair and accessible competition for all interested.

    I think there are plenty of cases where trying to be too strict on "original hardware" would make it difficult for many people to compete. A prime example could be the Atari 5200 - the controllers are notoriously unreliable that expecting someone to use only original controllers would really make it hard for anyone to compete.
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  3. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    I see the pic just fine.

    Also, I'd like to toss out this as a suggested principle behind doing this. A goal of enabling criteria for fair and accessible competition for all interested.

    I think there are plenty of cases where trying to be too strict on "original hardware" would make it difficult for many people to compete. A prime example could be the Atari 5200 - the controllers are notoriously unreliable that expecting someone to use only original controllers would really make it hard for anyone to compete.

    I agree with you 100%. I care far more about gameplay than I do about “original Hardware”. That said, I want the gameplay to be on a level playing field. I think original Hardware is great, but I want more people to be able to play. I also think most “unoriginal hardware” creates more of a handicap than an advantage.
  4. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Does anyone have examples of scores currently in the database that were accepted in which the player does not use “Original Hardware”? I’m speaking about the console, not the cart or controller in this case.
  5. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    I know that @thegamer1185 has mentioned Gameboy / Gameboy Color etc Submissions. Maybe he can speak to reverse compatible submissions?
  6. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Just to be clear: my goal is NOT to try and get any currently accepted score submissions removed from the database. My goal is only to have @TWIN GALAXIES and @Dave Hawksett help to provide clarification to the rules. All gamers, new and old, deserve to stand on equal footing when it comes to clarification and understanding of the rules.
  7. bruzzi's Avatar
    They are valid questions. I was thinking for PC games like cuphead or rocket league is the original controller keyboard and mouse? Cause I normally use Xbox controller on PC.
  8. gavv's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    Just to be clear: my goal is NOT to try and get any currently accepted score submissions removed from the database. My goal is only to have @TWIN GALAXIES and @Dave Hawksett help to provide clarification to the rules. All gamers, new and old, deserve to stand on equal footing when it comes to clarification and understanding of the rules.
    I think a singular across the board rule for all platforms probably wouldn't be feasible. You'd have to have some platform specificity to some of it when it comes to the console hardware. While some 'not original' platforms (like the mentioned super game boy, or the GameCube game boy player) duplicate the hardware, they don't do so without some quirks. Whereas the 2600 expander modules for CV and Inty are full fledged 2600s . And the case of say 2600 carts played in a 7800 (or master system carts in a power base converter)
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  9. sdwyer138's Avatar
    Personally I don't have a problem with it unless it can be confirmed that the hardware provides an unfair advantage over the original (Super Gameboy, for example). If the hardware does provide an unfair advantage, or otherwise incorrectly execute the game's code, this would probably be detected during the adjudication process and would then be rejected.
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  10. sdwyer138's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses
    Does anyone have examples of scores currently in the database that were accepted in which the player does not use “Original Hardware”? I’m speaking about the console, not the cart or controller in this case.
    All of my Super Nintendo submissions. I replaced the original red power LED with a purple one! :P
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  11. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138
    All of my Super Nintendo submissions. I replaced the original red power LED with a purple one! :P
    REJECTED!!! BANNED!!!!
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  12. sdwyer138's Avatar
    Also, does 'original hardware' extend to the power adapter and the AV or RF adapter too?

    What if your system is broken and you repair it with a 3rd party component? For example the 72 pin connector in a NES, the laser assembly in a PS2, the capacitors or screen in a Game Gear....
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  13. Barthax's Avatar
    There are submissions with modified video output. That was generally accepted from ~2004 era TG. That era also rejected any ROM mods but TGSAP has accepted ROM mods in GameCube (at least).
    ThanksDave Hawksett thanked this post
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  14. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    This is already generating useful stuff folks. Can anyone provide an example of where a non-original controller/joystick has been shown to give an advantage over the original?
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  15. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett
    This is already generating useful stuff folks. Can anyone provide an example of where a non-original controller/joystick has been shown to give an advantage over the original?
    Well, some controllers contain turbo buttons. That would obviously allow some advantage. As a general rule, turbo buttons have not been allowed. But if a player doesn’t show their controller, then how can an adjudicator ever know?

    There has also been talk about Intellivision Flashback controllers offering more “comfort” with rubber buttons as opposed to hard plastic. The sensitivity of the disc is also different. I don’t see either of these as an “advantage” per se but some might?

    From a colecovision and Intellivision perspective, one of the biggest complaints has always been about their controllers. Does playing on a modified NES controller allow a player an advantage on ColecoVision or Intellivision? Same goes for Atari 2600. Is it “easier” to play using a Sega Genesis Controller?

    Does using a wiresless Bluetooth Switch controller feel better than using an NES brick controller?

    All very hard to say regarding “Advantage”?
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  16. GibGirl's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett
    This is already generating useful stuff folks. Can anyone provide an example of where a non-original controller/joystick has been shown to give an advantage over the original?
    Here's an interesting case that could be debated. For my Rock Band drums submissions, I've used the Ion Drum Rocker. It's a drum kit that's compatible with Rock Band games, and much nicer than the original plastic drums that were made for the game. It's actually a low-end electronic drum kit, that connects up to a controller module. I'd argue that the big improvement in quality offers up an advantage. Not a "cheating" advantage, but that it eliminates many of the common problems that crop up with the original kit.

    However, it was promoted by Harmonix, and they were actively making sure to support it in the games - and even helped with getting an adapter that allows using it on the Xbox One for RB4.

    I point this out because it really highlights the complexity that can crop up when trying to define what counts as "advantage" and what is "original" or "official" hardware. I'm not trying to talk my submissions out of being legitimate, as I think the drums I use should absolutely count.

    (You know, I think my partner being in law school is rubbing off on me in some ways...)
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  17. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    Great examples - this is exactly what we are looking for. Keep 'em coming, let us gather a whole bunch of these. We will ask questions when we need to, some of which may be semi-intelligent.
  18. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Can @thegamer1185 link to one of his REJECTED Analogue NT Mini NES scores?

    I think it plays a role in this discussion. I challenge anyone to find anything in the gameplay that doesn’t “add up”.
  19. DadsGlasses's Avatar
    Does anyone know of any accepted scores in the database that used a Clone console?
  20. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    Persecute the heretic. He thinks he's Mace Windu...

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138
    All of my Super Nintendo submissions. I replaced the original red power LED with a purple one! :P
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