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Dave Hawksett
04-18-2018 at 04:51 AM
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Policy change regarding video evidence

Dear all,

We have updated our policies on third-party video evidence and the need for comprehensive video evidence. Please see What I should put in my submission evidence package. https://www.twingalaxies.com/help.php

Any submissions that do not have the video evidence directly uploaded to Twin Galaxies are liable to be cancelled by TG Admin. We want to avoid scenarios in which video evidence is removed from a third-party hosting site such as YouTube or Twitch.

From now on all submissions must include full footage of the game play. People are encouraged to show additional evidence of the controller being used and the game settings, where appropriate.
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  1. EVN's Avatar
    Any chance you can not hit people's credibility for this kind of dispute? Seems bad to punish people for participating in adjudication years later when they did everything right and by the rules at the time they voted.
  2. starcrytas's Avatar
    Does this affect already accepted scores?
    I have plenty of accepted scores that have a YouTube link as my evidence.
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  3. danman1234's Avatar
    Yes its just insane to me to ding people after the fact. Its exactly like i said you being on a jury. I vote "guilty" for someone of a crime/submission (Accepted) and then later something comes up and "Oh wait they are innocent (Rejected)" and now as a member of that jury they say "Well ok you now have a 5 year sentence for getting it wrong". I have to do time for my vote? Imagine if that system was in place for people asked to serve on a jury? I'm fine with saying "Ok new policy" and all that but to punish someone years later while anything pre-tgsap is just well lets just say "blissfully ignored" makes me just go huh?Also just to clarify it doesnt say "full performance" in the rules I just read but given the recent events here I doubt anything less with qualify. Its kinda funny how its made it extremely difficult for people to go to arcades or events and submit here as everything is the "home standard" right now. Perhaps its for the best and I hope we can figure something out going forward for exceptions but until then c'est la vie...

    Also there is a minor errors on the page - "however, Twin Galaxies strongly recommends that you play it safe and upload your score performance videos whenever " it just cuts off here so I assume something was meant to be after the "whenever" like "whenever you submit a performance"

    Thanks Dave
    "Obviously, what you choose to put into your score submission evidence package is up to you. The VERIFIED voting community will decide what makes sense - however, Twin Galaxies strongly recommends that you play it safe and upload your score performance videos whenever
    ThanksDave Hawksett thanked this post
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  4. Snowflake's Avatar
    overall like that it creates clarity and prevents future dings since everyone will reject in the first place.
    i also noticed you said "likely" cancelled, does this mean for marathons/special cases third party will still be allowed?
  5. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    This will not be applied retroactively. Scores that have already passed the TGSAP using third-party hosted videos are fine. If the video evidence for any of those scores is removed, that would be a solid basis for those scores to be disputed. Any submissions currently in the queue which do not have video evidence directly uploaded should be cancelled by the player concerned. We will cancel them as we find them.

    Lack of complete footage for scores that have already passed the TGSAP will not be a solid reason by itself for disputes.
    @Snowflake we are not considering special cases at this time.
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  6. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    @Dave Hawksett - What about a submission that has a link to You-tube AND a zip file within the thread that provides a permanent backup?
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  7. bensweeneyonbass's Avatar
    I know you're being hit with a lot of questions but I wanted to make one primary distinction:

    MAME platform submissions shouldn't be canceled based on lack of video evidence as the INP recording is the core of the evidence package.
    LikesBarthax, Ragequit, Rogerpoco, d3scride liked this post
  8. GibGirl's Avatar
    Might there be some changes to score submissions to offer submitters an easy way to attach video evidence to a submission thread? We see submitters, mainly new ones, who will include photos or links to videos elsewhere. But because there's not really a way to attach a video to a submission after the initial post, they're stuck watching their one free submission get rejected.

    It seems like one more way that TG could improve the process to try and be a little more welcoming for new users.
    Likesdanman1234, Max, Snowflake, Retro-Shark liked this post
  9. Desidious's Avatar
    Can someone list the instances where the controller would get a submission declined? I know rapid fire and the like is common sense.. I would just like more info.
  10. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by EVN
    From now on all submissions must include full footage of the game play
    Is this saying that breaks in the footage as a result of camera mishaps are to be automatically rejected, or will adjudicators still have latitude in determining if a run is valid within the given circumstance?

    An example would be in this Cabbage Patch run - https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ca...k/colecovision

    The camera cut off for some reason I don't recall (battery I think), and she got it switched out and kept playing...the video was missing 15-20 seconds of gameplay. But in this case, the game has no pause feature, no rest spots, and an in game timer, so all of that showed it for what it was (a technical mishap) and the community accepted.

    Will this still be the norm of adjudication, or will submissions like this need to be automatically rejected?
  11. danman1234's Avatar
    I would hope that some common sense applies here and a small glitch is not a reason to reject a game. It says in the rules that is just a recommendation again anyway.
  12. Snowflake's Avatar
    If there are to be no exceptions (understandable), then can i ask effort be put in to help get submissions over 4 hours uploade? I know its been claimed this is not an issue, however, considering your own tech team was only able to import 4hours submissions from twitch it seems kind of unfiar to expect us to do something that even your professionals havent figured out a way to do yet
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  13. Max's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    Might there be some changes to score submissions to offer submitters an easy way to attach video evidence to a submission thread? We see submitters, mainly new ones, who will include photos or links to videos elsewhere. But because there's not really a way to attach a video to a submission after the initial post, they're stuck watching their one free submission get rejected.

    It seems like one more way that TG could improve the process to try and be a little more welcoming for new users.
    The above would be a great assistance for new users in particular.

    It may also be a help to new users to have something in the submission form that indicates that only direct uploads to TG (this excludes youtube and twitch links) are accepted for submission.

    Again, this will lead towards a better new user experience.
    Likesd3scride liked this post
    Updated 04-18-2018 at 09:06 AM by Max
  14. danman1234's Avatar
    Or if the video you tried to upload somehow errors out. Ive got a few of those "video not playable" messages. There needs to be a way to fix that before the submission ends. At least a way to get some authorization to do so when requested vs trying to get an admin to do it. Ive asked and sent emails multiple times to fix my DK Atari 800 submission and finally downloaded it from youtube, re-encoded it at a microscopic bitrate so I could upload a zip file of it to the submission. Would love to be able to just "fix" the broken video with a new upload but alas cannot. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    Might there be some changes to score submissions to offer submitters an easy way to attach video evidence to a submission thread? We see submitters, mainly new ones, who will include photos or links to videos elsewhere. But because there's not really a way to attach a video to a submission after the initial post, they're stuck watching their one free submission get rejected.

    It seems like one more way that TG could improve the process to try and be a little more welcoming for new users.
    ThanksRonnieWeston thanked this post
    LikesMax, Emayl, GibGirl, RonnieWeston liked this post
  15. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234
    I would hope that some common sense applies here and a small glitch is not a reason to reject a game. It says in the rules that is just a recommendation again anyway.
    I hope so as well...just wanting to clarify what is set in stone, and what can be determined by the community.
  16. GibGirl's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by danman1234
    Or if the video you tried to upload somehow errors out. Ive got a few of those "video not playable" messages. There needs to be a way to fix that before the submission ends. At least a way to get some authorization to do so when requested vs trying to get an admin to do it. Ive asked and sent emails multiple times to fix my DK Atari 800 submission and finally downloaded it from youtube, re-encoded it at a microscopic bitrate so I could upload a zip file of it to the submission. Would love to be able to just "fix" the broken video with a new upload but alas cannot. :(
    Yep, this too. It's one of the reasons I keep commenting on how we should be allowed to edit submissions. Empower the users to fix typos, add videos that got missed or failed to upload, and include more information. I understand it would have to be a system that tracks changes, doesn't allow removing evidence, and prevents any means for someone's vote to still be applied to a submission that's changed since they voted.

    I believe something can be created that's simultaneously more user friendly, and at least as good at preserving evidence and not making it easier for people to cheat.

    Of course, I'd also love to see a video manager similar to what we have for images, so people can upload a video before making the submission, then just attach it. I think it would also improve those cases where a single video is used for multiple submissions.
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  17. Max's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by EVN
    Any chance you can not hit people's credibility for this kind of dispute? Seems bad to punish people for participating in adjudication years later when they did everything right and by the rules at the time they voted.
    Both Dan and Matthew comment on this further above as well.

    The reality with Twitch and Youtube links is that eventually they will expire as the URL link will change or a change in third party TOS etc. It's just a matter of time. I don't see any third party upload as being safe from deletion.

    For TG to accept third party video then later change to direct uploads only is good, though many will get hit for adjudicating good submissions in good faith prior to this policy being changed. TG policy was not always clear and concise here and some consideration for this isn't unreasonable.
    ThanksMyOwnWorstEnemy thanked this post
  18. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    We are working on solutions to all the issues raised here, including making the systems more user friendly.
    ThanksSnowflake, GibGirl, bensweeneyonbass thanked this post
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  19. swaggers's Avatar
    @Dave Hawksett Speaking of Canceled submissions... when will they be moved to Rejected? There are 9 pages of cancelled right now.
  20. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    I would like to see that. It would be very helpful for a submitter to be able to add a video to his/her own thread after posting the submission. The current system only allows photographs.

    That's a great point Gib-Girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl
    Might there be some changes to score submissions to offer submitters an easy way to attach video evidence to a submission thread? We see submitters, mainly new ones, who will include photos or links to videos elsewhere. But because there's not really a way to attach a video to a submission after the initial post, they're stuck watching their one free submission get rejected.

    It seems like one more way that TG could improve the process to try and be a little more welcoming for new users.
    ThanksRonnieWeston thanked this post
    LikesRonnieWeston, Rogerpoco liked this post
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