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Dave Hawksett
09-12-2018 at 09:55 AM
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Voting on one’s own submissions

Dear all,


Currently voting on your own score submission is allowed and has been since the introduction of the modern Twin Galaxies Submission and Adjudication Process (TGSAP).


We are considering removing the ability to vote on one’s own score submissions. If we decide to do this it will be at the back of the priority queue considering everything already in it! I.e. not 'soon'.


I would like to invite our members to post pros and cons for this here so the decision can be informed by community feedback and input.


Thank you in anticipation.


Dave Hawksett
Head Custodian
www.TwinGalaxies.com

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Comments
  1. GibGirl's Avatar

    Pro: It's a good "put your money where your mouth is" moment. If you vote for your own submission, you get a submission point back if it completes, and if not, you get the credibility hit. But also allows you to submit something where there's an open question on if the community will support it without taking the credibility hit by choosing not to vote.


    Con: It does feel strange having that input over your own. Surely if any of the benefits are intended, they could just be worked into the system instead.

  2. Max's Avatar

    Why are you considering this Dave? What issue/s generate a concern from TG that a change may need to be proposed?


    Having a base understanding as to why this is a proposal would be a great help.


    ThanksPixe Sukola, The Evener thanked this post
  3. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    If stated this in past forum posts, that it really doesn't make logical sense on why a submitter has the option of voting yes or no on their own submission. The adjudication process is more like someone (the submitter) presenting a proposal (evidence package) for peer review and acceptance (adjudicator). The submitter is presenting something in 'good faith' that is valid. Therefore, they should never be allowed to vote no or abstain from their own submission. If for some bizarre reason, the submitter is providing evidence in bad faith, they don't get to vote no and receive credibility and a submission point.

    Unfortunately, I think the adjudication voting process was designed like a political election rather than modeled after an adjudication process, like a jury verdict (don't mean to be dramatic). If you're presenting your case to the jurists, you don't get a vote and deliberate with the jurists. If you don't feel like you have a valid case, don't bring it to court.

    If or when this change occurs, I think it could lead to positive changes in the cancellation function and possible improvements to the risk/reward incentives in the adjudication process.


    Thanks Dave for the post!

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  4. 90skidJohnny's Avatar

    Even the President is allowed to vote.

    Likeskernzyp, Marcade liked this post
  5. Dave Hawksett's Avatar

    It is a consideration only at this time. Please remember that the weight of any vote reflects the CR of the voter. This is an 'in principle' idea and there are more to come.


    Quote Originally Posted by Max

    Why are you considering this Dave? What issue/s generate a concern from TG that a change may need to be proposed?


    Having a base understanding as to why this is a proposal would be a great help.


    LikesHugDD liked this post
  6. Snowflake's Avatar

    Oh man I used to think about this a lot. Does someone become any less of an expert on their own acore? Also not just voting power on their score but earned voting power going forward. If someone is wrong about their score let them vote and take the hit to keep their cres accuraee likewise if they’re correct let them vote and increase their cred. The more you let people vote the more accurate cred is. Of course yes there’s bias and fir high cred users that’s scary. I don’t think you can say anyone with high cred can’t self vote but everyone else can.


    In short I only think it’s an issue for high cred users who can essentially self enter. I would say only they need to have the ability to self vote remove but since you have to treat everyone equally I have to agree with removing self voting

    Updated 09-12-2018 at 10:36 AM by Snowflake
  7. kernzyp's Avatar

    At first thought, it will just make the queue longer.
    My motto is: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    LikesBarthax, Conjured Entertainment liked this post
  8. Max's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hawksett

    It is a consideration only at this time. Please remember that the weight of any vote reflects the CR of the voter. This is an 'in principle' idea and there are more to come.




    A bit vague, but certainly a help. Thank you for the response.


    If the proposal is due to high CR voters having too much power when voting on their own submissions, then one might suggest that we look at how CR values are calculated and how CR values relate to the overall economy. Suggestions could be encouraged to improve the original CR system.


    Just spitballing mind you... rather than an attempt to patch, resolving at the source may be an approach to consider.


    I'm with Jace's initial comment on the matter though: as presidents can vote for themselves, we should be able to as well.


    If changed, this will also slow the queue processing down.


    @stella_blue







  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    the slow down of the queue is a good pont. i would hope that removing ones abitly to vote on own enry wuld go along with cahnging the formuila of how many votes are needed so that it will all even out.

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  10. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    The president being able to vote for himself is not really a good comparison. The president's vote does not carry more weight than the one of the average person.

    I absolutely think one should be able to vote on their own submissions, but maybe when you do, your vote is counted as if you had 1000 cred or 5K or something like that.

    ThanksDave Hawksett, MyOwnWorstEnemy thanked this post
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  11. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    I like the proposal.

    It seems silly to me that I have to vote Yes on my own submissions. When the screen comes up after my submission loads my immediate thought is, of course I vote Yes or wouldn't have submitted it. It just seems redundant.

    The real question comes down to if people should receive or lose CR on their own submissions. I think the answer to that is no. One reason for this opinion is that I once had what I thought was a valid submission rejected. It was bad enough that my submission got rejected but to also lose a bunch of CR really made me bitter. I realize there aren't many submission that get rejected before they are cancelled anymore but I do think it's a good idea to avoid this situation.

    I'm also not a fan of people being able to boost their CR by as much as 1/3 or more (depending on how many votes on other submissions has been wrong) simply by voting on their own submissions. I think CR is better when it only measures your votes on other people's submissions. For example, I currently have 6,647 submission points. If my main goal was to raise my CR, I could submit 2,215 mediocre scores and increase my CR by 6,645. If I did this I don't really think I'd be any more credible so I'd argue that this option should be taken away. It just doesn't make sense that someone should have more CR than another person just because they've submitted more of their own scores. I know some will disagree with this but it's how I see it.

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  12. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    I wanted to comment on the even the president gets to vote comment but forgot. This is not an election. An election is you voting your opinion and there is no wrong answer or no penalty for voting for the loser. This is a fact based poll and there is a penalty for being wrong. The two are not the same. When a gamer submits their score they are already claiming their facts to be correct. It doesn't make sense that they also to get to vote on their claim.

    ThanksMyOwnWorstEnemy thanked this post
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  13. Desidious's Avatar

    Take away our ability to vote on our own stuff and make subs cost 2 instead of 3 sp. That's how I feel it should go. I thoroughly enjoy bringing the cost down on my subs by voting on them. Then again..I'm frugal.

  14. Desidious's Avatar

    Keep in mind that having that less vote could make the queue even longer than it is already turning out to be. Another consideration especially considering how many pages are already in the queue.

  15. Dave Hawksett's Avatar

    Good pros and cons so far - thank you all. There is absolutely no rush on this. The decision will eventually be made based on what is said here. As always, please continue to keep it civil!

  16. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    Being impartial and independent is a tenement to traditional adjudication process. As mentioned by D.B Cooper above, a yeah or nay vote in an adjudication is not the same as a popular vote in a political election. In TGSAP, a submitter is presenting their evidence to substantiate their claim, that they performed a video game accomplishment that is in accordance with the game and general rules, in a manner / format that is accepted evidence.

    Voting yes on your own submission is redundant as your making the valid claim as the submitter. Voting no on your submission also makes no sense since you've presented a valid claim in good faith. Voting and receiving compensation for your own submission then becomes problematic as the submitter is benefiting from their own partial and biased vote.

    If you every find yourself as a defendant in a court case (I hope not), ask the judge when its ok for you to cast your vote as a member of the jury, a legal adjudication process. In that case, you've already entered your plea or presented your case. It is not a vote, its your position. Just like submission evidence is your position that the score is valid and provided in good faith.

    LikesD.B. Cooper liked this post
  17. Max's Avatar

    One thing presidential elections and jurors have in common: individual vote value isn't multiplied by an entirely subjective number. Imagine one juror having 50 votes because they've been deemed more competent just for being a juror 50 times before!

    LikesMyOwnWorstEnemy, Cyriss_Zeal liked this post
    Updated 09-12-2018 at 01:20 PM by Max
  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    so i'm thinking of the unintended side effects brought up above, it would be good to consider every effect of this and consider how to remove unintended side effects. so what's everyitng voting on your own submission does? as far as i can tell this a complete list
    1. Affect the vote count. Therefore removing self vote would presumably slow down the queue unless a chance to the secret formula took this into account
    2. Gives you a submission point back. This change can be offset by just charging 2 points to submit, since essentially right now thats what it basically costs
    3. Gives you credibilty back. honestly, i think yes, if two people both adjudicated 10 submissions, but addtiionally one person played alot of their own games, then yes, they have more experience. so maybe if you remove the right to vote on your own entry, at the same time automatically give people 3 cred increase every time a succesful sub of theirs goes through. being able to get a succesful sub through shows that you both play games as well as know how to make a good submission packages. surely those skills will translate over in judging others. Playing an actual game i think demonstrates more expertise than just copying the votes you see other people making for example.

  19. stella_blue's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper

    For example, I currently have 6,647 submission points. If my main goal was to raise my CR, I could submit 2,215 mediocre scores and increase my CR by 6,645


    By fully exploiting the 2 SP "effective" cost, you could increase your CR by 9,969 points.

    Voting on your 2,215 scores would recapture 2,215 submission points, allowing you to submit another 739 scores, then 246 more, then 82, and so on.

    3 x ( 2215 + 739 + 246 + 82 + 27 + 9 + 3 + 1 + 1 ) = 9969



    ThanksHugDD thanked this post
    Updated 09-12-2018 at 01:52 PM by stella_blue
  20. xcess dead rew's Avatar

    Pesonally. I've never voted yes on a sub of mine. But I did vote no on my first after discussion proved I was not correct in my submission. It just seems like cheating to vote yes on my own sub. But I'm weird so...

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