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Desidious
02-14-2019 at 02:43 PM
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Thoughts on imitating gameplay.


Please tell me your thoughts on how and why others imitate gameplay in competitions and how you feel about it.


Don't worry, I won't judge you... much.

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  1. keebz's Avatar

    Well, there's imitating and then there is plagiarism. And it's a fine line. In a game, when you're imitating another players ideas, moves, tricks, trying to max a score or whatever... That's how we improve each other. People do this for most competitive scenarios. Super Mario Bros is down to milliseconds in their speed run. Aiming for the perfect game (that we know of). Same for Pitfall or even the infamous dragster. But skill is involved with that perfection.


    Plagiarism, on the other hand, incorporates no skill whatsoever. It's hard to plagiarise most games. But take a chess for example. If you just move for move force an AI into someone else's game, and hit reset when the computer doesn't output the required response, well there is no skill in that. You don't even have to understand the rules to the game. The player didn't learn or improve or even "play". It's hacking. There are few games where this exists... But who would do that anyways? Seems lame ;)

    Neither are against the rules on TG, but IMHO one is more respectable than the other.

  2. Marcade's Avatar

    I dont have an issue with it...Meanwhile, @Desidious is imitating @Marcade in forum posts !!! ;)


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    Updated 02-14-2019 at 03:00 PM by Marcade
  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    People over use the word plagiarism this is competition and competition wouldn’t be fair unless everyone was allowed the same rules and tactics


    Here’s my question. Sure it’s ok I think most of us know that but what’s the nest way to deal with the debate? Ignore it? Argue back?

  4. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Just reflecting my own experience with the subject, of which I have PLENTY!

    :)


    Rehashing old stories, I spent my whole life as a gamer, a passionate one.

    But a stinky one.

    Spent a decade playing RPG's because it was all I could do-not that there isn't skill and fun in them, but is much more "thinking" than "doing", usually.


    Then I accidentally saw J.D. Lowe kicking the crap out of Burgertime, a game that I always liked, but could get nowhere with whatsoever-I actually did have self-taught 450k Donkey Kong skills then, stinky or not-ton of ESI if I could still do it, but knowing what I know, I don't even want to spend that much time on it, lest I become addicted...


    So anyways, I copied the concept(grouping the baddies), and copied the first few routes-the game changes speed a bit as the game progresses, and you have to change up the routes, but I truly didn't "study" past the first looparound-because I had learned the concept, by copying someone else, I was able to apply it in my own ways later on, and even wound up changing up my patterns on the first few levels a bit.

    So that is one directly, and the first one.

    *The Point*

    I believe, in my heart, that J.D. would even tell you-he "only"(BIG only)taught me HOW to play Burgertime.


    Working with Greg on many things would apply, but specifically Gran Prix, 3BB.

    I was playing the first two tracks, and he decided the we wanted to take on game 3 together(hehe), he hadn't really pushed himself on it.

    So day by day he would help me out, tell me some new spot to change routes, how to deal with "the Slide", etc, and eventually we both wound up with nutto times on the game.

    The video is there, someone can copy exactly what I did now, and match or beat my time.

    But Good Luck on that, you'll need it.

    *The Point*

    Just because you know how to do something, doesn't mean you can do it.


    Super Punch-Out, SNES.

    Definitely worked out patterns from some random youtube Guy that people commenting said was cheating, impossible stuff-my times aren't Speedrun times, but they are pretty good, and mostly prove out the youtube Guy as legit, that was kinda a mission.

    Still tho...

    *The Point*

    Same as the last point, just reinforcing with redundancy.


    Most recently, right now in fact, I'm playing along with Terrence on the Ferrari Challenge on Sega Genesis, and it turns out I used the wrong setups on several tracks, am copying him directly and improving my times on all the tracks, making it a bit more of a challenge for him to get "forever" top spots.

    *The Point*

    It's fun to rip off Rage.


    There's more, lol, but those are just some examples.

    As long as you are trying to improve your own skills, I think it's mostly OK-most of what I can do I have learned from my friends and competitors here, I just don't think that's a bad thing.


    Just don't ever, EVER try to copy Al's Bowling swing, for Chrissakes, just...don't.

    :P




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  5. keebz's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    People over use the word plagiarism this is competition and competition wouldn’t be fair unless everyone was allowed the same rules and tactics


    Here’s my question. Sure it’s ok I think most of us know that but what’s the nest way to deal with the debate? Ignore it? Argue back?


    Obviously this thread is due to me calling out a popular player for copying a board based video game I played and then doing the same thing to Rodger on his chess WR. I didn't vote no on mine, but did vote no on the chess one because it literally isn't up to TG submission standards because the video cuts out entirely between moves.


    I don't think there's anything wrong with calling someone out on a cheap / lazy WR attempt. It's the #1 spot, you should bring your own A game for that slot imo. If I hurt some feelings meh, I guess I'm sorry. But hopefully instead, it will spur players to really play the game and not just take the no skill path. A different player today submitted two Othello games that we're amazing and used methods that I use and openly share. They did GREAT and I suspect could quickly set their own WR on the same game.

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  6. GibGirl's Avatar

    If one person can watch a video of someone else's game play, then go duplicate it easily and do just as well... maybe that's not a game worth tracking scores on.


    I mean, come on, not every game should bother being tracked. There are games here on TG that, frankly, are a waste of everyone's time. (Codebreaker? A Game of Concentration? "reset until you get lucky" isn't a skill)

  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    You are certainly in your rights to express your opinion. We’re allowed to state why we disagree. You’re also in your rights to abstain. I just want to nip this stuff in the bud before people start rejecting over it. Obvious “cool” or “lame” is lies opinion and you’re welcome to that. I chaffe at word choice plagiarism but you know me and semantics as long as you’re just saying that ti mean “lame” then that’s fine

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  8. keebz's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    You are certainly in your rights to express your opinion. We’re allowed to state why we disagree. You’re also in your rights to abstain. I just want to nip this stuff in the bud before people start rejecting over it. Obvious “cool” or “lame” is lies opinion and you’re welcome to that. I chaffe at word choice plagiarism but you know me and semantics as long as you’re just saying that ti mean “lame” then that’s fine


    I want to be really clear about why I have voted no or abstained on some recent submissions. I has nothing to do with this topic at all. It would be extremely petty of any person to not accept a legit score even if it was obtained in a lazy manner.


    Recently we have seen a LOT of submissions that are just not up to the standards that have been expected or requested by other players. And THAT is worth abstaining over. I've only voted no on one submission and I clearly defined and defended my reason for doing so. If a submission has drop out footage during game play, especially multiple times... I'm voting no. That has nothing to do with the game or player, that's just an expectation for a solid submission.

  9. datagod's Avatar

    Did I ever tell you about the time I got 10,000 on slot machine? Please don't copy my tactic.

  10. Ninglendo's Avatar

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  11. Desidious's Avatar

    Thank you all. This has been a very informative thread. I will judge you all accordingly. :)

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  12. Desidious's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    If one person can watch a video of someone else's game play, then go duplicate it easily and do just as well... maybe that's not a game worth tracking scores on.


    I mean, come on, not every game should bother being tracked. There are games here on TG that, frankly, are a waste of everyone's time. (Codebreaker? A Game of Concentration? "reset until you get lucky" isn't a skill)


    You really need to stop looking at games and tracks so subjectively. This is all business and every game belongs on a leaderboard no matter if its Elmo's Letter Adventure or Home Alone. Someone somewhere probably wants to see how fast they can get to the center of the universe on No Man's Sky or see how many fish they can catch in a certain time on Red Dead Redemption 2. You have no right to judge what doesn't belong on a leaderboard, just how the rules are set up for it. We will probably never see eye in eye on this and I won't think any less of you.. I just will fight for game equality. :)

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    I agree everything is tracksble however I would say if something is so easy to memorize and defeat then maybe it’s no big deal if someone “plagiarizes” it. If someone takes credit for my masters thesis I’ll be pissed. If someone takes credit for some fart joke I made while drunk I don’t care.

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    Updated 02-14-2019 at 07:31 PM by Snowflake
  14. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Rogers

    Did I ever tell you about the time I got 10,000 on slot machine? Please don't copy my tactic.


    Pull win, reset to save, pull win, reset to save, pull, lose, pull lose, pull win, reset to save...etc

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  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Mitchel



    how do you think i feel, the whole damn mame platform is nothing but a bunch of plagiarizing lonely losers

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  16. keebz's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    I agree everything is tracksble however I would say if something is so easy to memorize and defeat then maybe it’s no big deal if someone “plagiarizes” it.


    But what if they didn't memorize it? What if they are watching it on a second screen and pausing between moves and just copying the game play?

  17. Snowflake's Avatar

    pausing is against global rules

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  18. keebz's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    pausing is against global rules


    I meant they were watching the game they were copying on another screen and pausing between the originals games moves in order to copy the moves for their live game. Because that is what happened in the Othello situation. I think memorzing an entire Othello game is harder than beating it legit... That would have my respect lol


    But instead, there's massive gaps in play because the player had to rewind my game and pause because I was making moves too fast. To me... That's pretty lame. If you have to watch and pause through my game to get your score to match... That is exactly the "p" word. That's not strategy or technique. If you can duplicate my game from memory... That would have been impressive.

    Updated 02-14-2019 at 08:05 PM by keebz
  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    ther's only one way to solve this.

    I suggest that @Timmel have settle it on the screen where lee and glen go head to head on a game of othello. You dont have to be there in person, correspondance otherllo works just fine, each announce your move, and let him make it for you on his board.

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  20. keebz's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    ther's only one way to solve this.

    I suggest that @Timmel have settle it on the screen where lee and glen go head to head on a game of othello. You dont have to be there in person, correspondance otherllo works just fine, each announce your move, and let him make it for you on his board.


    Oh gosh... I love Othello and even I think that sounds boring :-p

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