first, no matter where i disagree, its worth noting that likely many others feels how he feels, and the reasoning makes sense as well when you dont have all the little details we have of the history, so i think we need to expect the stance in this video is probably the standard stance of reasonable outsiders everywhere.


todd and billy's news were big news, people that dont really realize how different the tgsap iteration is will understanbly draw the wrong conclusion that its one long running entity. The strict rules that old the refs made, and the strict enforcement the new community makes, results in what looks to be an overly strict over compensation for high profile cheating cases. we know thats not how it went down, we know the same thorough community that caught the cheating is the same thorough community that has what feels like burdensome rules. the harder rules happened first not after, but i can see where it comes off that way.

honestly, there's worse things to be known for than too thorough.

but yeah, also, the seedrun rules on the older tracks are complete nonsense. of course serious gamers mock them. heck when we saw some high profile speeders come here, you know me i wouldnt give them special treatment, but my goodness i was shocked that what they received by at least two members was borderline harasssment. Thats gotta have had a ripple effect. as if the real rules arent bad enough, trying to reject the valid run because it didnt match some members made up really weird on the spot rules.


in conlcusion, i think its good. if people are talking then its still got some chance. I thought the complaints were missing context but we're reasonable and thats good because it means reasonable people making the judgment and reasonable people have a way to coming to the right answers and adjustiving views accordingly. And i think its a reminder, sure, while i care more susbtance than appearance, if the new tg wants to keep getting good members we need to be aware of our appearance and that currently our image is worse than i think we currently deserve and its on us to fix that

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Well here's my thoughts...

1, 2:36 - "they require you to show boot up of system" yes, because for the most part unlike speedruncom emulators are not accepted here unless in it's own track. I stand by this rule and its one of the reasons i don't personally submit to speedruncom as i've seen many records which are TAS but put forth as normal runs.

"Zhost could submit a run but they would require boot up because they don't know if he's good" - With all due respect this makes no sense at all and if they looked deeper it doesn't apply to all tracks here.

He says we are out of touch but he's out of touch with how things go and that none of us follow speed runs at all. Completely incorrect i actually follow many speed runners and also the YouTuber Karl Jobst who is a Golden Eye speed runner and does many compilations of speed run accomplishments.

I praise any speed runner as they are absolutely the finical of gaming. The things they do are just insane so i have a lot of respect for them. But back to the out of touch thing - I would argue that he is out of touch with what TG is and how different it is to speedruncom

2, 2.57 He states the community here is dated ... well maybe? Certainly where speedrunning is concerned i would actually agree that TG is behind the times a bit but then, thats why speedruncom exists. I personally don't see any need for this as each site does it's own thing I see TG as a score site whereas speedruncom is .. well speedrunning. One could argue they are the same which with some games sure they are but i see them as two different sites with two different uses (i know TG tracks speedruns but its not even close to speedruncom) I feel both sites do their thing and we should embrace each others community as we are all, after all skilled gamers pushing the limits.

3, 4:40 asks why we have such strict rule sets when "todd rogers was their king" this is EXACTLY why we have them in place because TG has suffered in the past and is aiming to make a positive change no? Also, this mindset of the old gate keepers and everything representing what TG is... @Jace Hall has been the head here for many years now and things have massively changed so yes, Todd, Billy etc were here and were questionable at best but it doesn't define TG so I'm confused as to why he makes this statement.

4, 5:00 - 6:41 statements here are just immature it's actually sad to hear a speed runner talk like this. I'm not active over there but i thought they were a bit more grown up than this.

5, 6:49 "i might try twin galaxies%" Good welcome aboard! The more integration between our two communities the better in my opinion, I kinda hate the us and them mentality some people have.

6, 8:53 he feels we are not up to date with speedrunning culture. I mean.. for me this is true as although i follow a few games there and the stuff Karl Jobst puts out i don't actively go on their so yes I would say some here are out of touch with speedrunning but the same applies to him and his view on TG. We are two seperate sites with again, in my opinion two separate goals. So naturally this will be a thing in some cases.

7, 9:06 again, just immature although a great grandpa impression i must say. Though, again he seems to think everyone here is a 1980's arcade gamer and old.

10:29 "Anyways because its fun sh**ting on Twin Galaxies because they are dinosaurs when it comes to rules and speed running community" It's really sad that he thinks this. I'm likely not much older than him for the record i don't see why they have this "they are old and dated" mentality. It's actually strange the views outsiders have on TG.

10:47 "twin galaxies is kinda just a different world" exactly.. but we like yourselves aim to push gaming to the limits but we do things slightly different. Don't like it, use speedruncom and not TG just like i use TG instead of speedruncom. We all have our preferences and it's an amazing thing that we have CHOICES of where to submit our accomplishments.

11:05 "I might submit a score to TG, its a entirely different run you can't do zeb skips" Do it! We welcome you onboard.

12:20 His ingame time vs real time debate does make sense to me actually as from what i know about metroid the timer rounds up to minutes no matter what amount of seconds there are so thats highly inaccurate if that is indeed the ruleset here.

Ultimately, kinds sad the view they have on TG but that's their opinion i guess. I still massively respect those guys. Their skills are absolutely nuts, like... wow.

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This is a reason we (community members) should be making speedrun tracks which allow glitches for some classic games.
There is some truth to what he says about TG not being educated and up-to-date on Speedrunning.

The comments by the guy in the video, as well as all the comments under the video, are what I regularly run into when trying to get non-TG gamers to submit to TG.

Maybe TG (the organization) could put out a video on their Youtube channel and clear the air, explain what it is exactly we do here and why, maybe a short demonstration of the process, and air out some of the common misconceptions about the organization currently held by the gaming public.

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

[snip]

Maybe TG (the organization) could put out a video on their Youtube channel and clear the air, explain what it is exactly we do here and why, maybe a short demonstration of the process, and air out some of the common misconceptions about the organization currently held by the gaming public.

[Sorry didn't have time to look at the video yet, going by comments here]

That's a really interesting idea, Excelliron - a video (or series) that walks people through what TG is about, where it's going, and tackling some of these misconceptions directly. Just not sure how it would be pitched without it seeming too insecure. In the same vein, I know there are a couple of TG gamers that love streaming - maybe here's a topic for a future video - your impressions of the TG community, talking across some of these differences.

I don't have a clear picture to know for sure how TG could approach this issue about how speedrunning is currently set up here. Maybe my past approach was too passive, but I thought that new members interested in speedrunning could take ownership/lead the charge in proposing changes and revisions since they would know how to set up these tracks best. But I can also see the point where "nothing changes" unless TG proactively begins to undertake such work first to avoid scenarios where a new and curious speedrunner drops by, sees the track, and goes, "gawd, that's crap" and just moves on. But it's also a question of TG resources and priorities and the whole cost-benefit analysis. Is there a substantial group of prospective gamers that might walk through the door if "such and such" changes were done?

I'm personally very open to re-examining the "barrier to participation" rules. The boot-up gets brought up A LOT and it has tanked at least a few submissions I've seen from new submitters that mostly stream on Twitch. I don't have an inside track on this, but maybe as a community we could be more flexible if other communities of passionate gamers have achieved a level of trust in accepting their achievements without something like showing boot-up? But I hear Rotunda on this as well.

Sure, I'm sure the median age on this site is older, but we're all young at heart :) I think more "cross generational" interaction would break down some of these stereotypes and demonstrate that gaming can be an ageless pursuit.

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I thought that new members interested in speedrunning could take ownership/lead the charge in proposing changes and revisions since they would know how to set up these tracks best. But I can also see the point where "nothing changes" unless TG proactively begins to undertake such work first to avoid scenarios where a new and curious speedrunner drops by, sees the track, and goes, "gawd, that's crap" and just moves on.

I think what also troubles new comers is the need to vote to earn the ability to submit beyond the first free submission. speedruncom is set up very differently and you just submit as you wish without the need to earn anything in order to submit which lets face it most people would prefer over working for it. I know this is what makes TG 'tick' so to speak but i'm sure it puts people off.

Ultimately though, it's TG's reputation to the newer generation which is the main issue. Sadly TG seems to have a very bad rep on places such as YouTube. I hate to say it but i've never actually seen a positive video about TG which is rather sad. I'm not even sure how you would begin to even start fixing that issue as the damage is done thanks to certain people of the past and some if not all was very public. TG still carries its reputation of the past and these recent events tipped it right over the edge. The Todd drama of late, king of kong, billy mitchell, Guinness WR and their stance on TG plus their recent move reinstating Billy's records and more. It has all really hurt TG and as the newer generation would say TG is almost a meme at this point.

Ideally a collaboration between TG and speedruncom would be the best way to go forward as who needs two lots of speedrun records especially when speedruncom is so well established already. Plus as has been stated and i do agree.. Who here really knows as much as the guys do over at speedruncom? I sure as hell don't, not even close.

The difference is, we vote on all systems, games, in one big adjudication process.. Games we've often never heard of or seen whereas I believe and forgive me if im wrong but voters on speedruncom are actually moderators of the game score board and know the game inside out. They are experts in that specific game and thus they really, REALLY know their stuff on said game(s) and are experts in knowing whats what.

See this video for example of how a Minecraft speedrun cheater was caught.. 8:39 onwards... it's absolutely amazing to me the lengths these people go to, to check on things to prove foul play and how well they know their games. In fact i admire it.

Whereas TG, we are very much behind in that respect. The guy in that video even mentioned this and i do agree with him. The structure over at speedruncom is far better than here in terms of adjudication. So yet another reason not to come here.

I'm not hating on TG I actually really like it here but I do see there is A LOT that would need to change to make things better and bringing in the speedrun crowd/newer generation? I wouldn't know where to start honestly. It's a huge task in my opinion.

I agree that TG is not the place to go for serious speed running, but also that's ok - there is a place for that and it is done very well there.

Even if TG carbon copied the Speedrun tracks/rules/acceptance process, where is the incentive for a speed runner to submit on two sites?

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So unfortunately previous TG players and administration did irreparable damage to Twin Galaxies reputation. We all know who. This is the way the 'outside' (non-user) world sees TG now. Unless there is some campaign (viral Youtube video, articles on gamer sites) to clearly outline the old and the new, this cloud will hang over TG forever.

I would assume speedrunners do not use the TG platform as they have their own platforms to use and a vibrant competitive community that has bought into those platforms.

I assume the issue here is people do not understand:
- The new TG administration compared to old
- The track creation process (anyone can make a track about anything in a game)
- The verification and voting process to ensure track validity

Perhaps Jace could produce some content to alleviate this issue and publish it?

Also, does TG actually do the Guinness thing anymore? Is there still prestige to that? The world has moved on and it's all about engagement.

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Also, does TG actually do the Guinness thing anymore? Is there still prestige to that?

After they reinstated BM's scores i think they have as bad if not worse a reputation than TG even if it is still a thing it doesn't hold much weight anymore.

Like you said, the world has moved on.

Right this second the Guinness brand in general has more respect than tg but I think we all know that’s cause of the past not present. I know I personally would want less to do with tg if it partnered with Guinness now and if Guinness doesn’t change it ways I’d imagine king teen others will also lose respect

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Originally Posted by rotunda

The difference is, we vote on all systems, games, in one big adjudication process.. Games we've often never heard of or seen whereas I believe and forgive me if im wrong but voters on speedruncom are actually moderators of the game score board and know the game inside out. They are experts in that specific game and thus they really, REALLY know their stuff on said game(s) and are experts in knowing whats what.

I agree with this so much. You want people who understand the game to be the voters, this is a main reason I am reluctant to vote on games I don't know, and it's why people discuss in detail the track rules and performace when voting. They are trying to understand before they cast a vote.

It's a catch 22, I'd prefer a few validated experts make the call on games they are known to be experts at, but then you have the old system. Downside is if there is corruption with the people in power.

This is convoluted and there isn;t the user base for it anywhere, but imagine a system where you had to become 'validated' to vote on a particular game (by submitting a performance in that game to a certain beginner level?). Impractical I know, but you'd have a growing number of people that know the game voting on it, and honestly none of the idiotic or donkey voting that sometimes happens, but they would all have to be active. Meh??? I'll shut up now.

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It's a catch 22, I'd prefer a few validated experts make the call on games they are known to be experts at, but then you have the old system. Downside is if there is corruption with the people in power.

I would prefer this as well but sadly we lack the people to pull this off. I can see why TG is set up like it is - it has to be.

But i can also see the issues with it as well. But TG works this way so its the way it has to be as the other way TG would grind to a stop. Speedruncom simply has the upper hand in that respect and that's ok and probably one of the many reasons most speedrunners use it vs here.

This is convoluted and there isn;t the user base for it anywhere, but imagine a system where you had to become 'validated' to vote on a particular game (by submitting a performance in that game to a certain beginner level?). Impractical I know, but you'd have a growing number of people that know the game voting on it, and honestly none of the idiotic or donkey voting that sometimes happens, but they would all have to be active. Meh???

This would be a lot better but sadly we just don't have enough 'experts' per game. Speedruncom is smart whereby they get the players to decide which game they want up and they then make them a 'mod' or 'admin' of said game. In this day and age being a mod or admin of most things is considered a privilege and they have tapped into this perfectly so keep those privileged players coming back to vote on any new submissions. It almost gives them a sense of purpose/leadership and perhaps even a sense of pride instead of grinding for submission points.

I'd say there is one game here (that i've seen at least, there may be more) that stand up to this level and that is Donkey Kong. The threads are always packed with comments, graphs are produced for how well each stage went. The knowledge here is outstanding for the game itself. Sadly, though Donkey Kong is really up there in terms of points so it's lifespan of a score breaker is now becoming very limited. But ultimately this is how it should always be here in my opinion BUT as stated before we don't have the knowledge or 'staff' behind it to pull it off.

Catch 22 like you say.

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What needs to be highlighted is that just because one set of rules exist* they are not the only possibility on the scoreboard. It must be highlighted more regularly that people can create new tracks in these kinds of discussions to lift TG out of history and up to date. Even among regulars we get this blockade of "you can't create something different" or "there's already a track for that". Yes, you can create new ways to game on the same games.

* and this set of rules was likely written in 2004 but just as old as that is: that video also seems to be presenting the 2004-era speedrunning view of 2004-era Twin Galaxies. That kind of commentary is older than speedrun.com. :P

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Originally Posted by 80sArcadeKid

It's a catch 22, I'd prefer a few validated experts make the call on games they are known to be experts at, but then you have the old system. Downside is if there is corruption with the people in power.

Validated experts age and lose interest. They are not a long term answer but only a short-term appeasement. Of course, you also highlight the power trip problem.

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What needs to be highlighted is that just because one set of rules exist* they are not the only possibility on the scoreboard. It must be highlighted more regularly that people can create new tracks in these kinds of discussions to lift TG out of history and up to date. Even among regulars we get this blockade of "you can't create something different" or "there's already a track for that". Yes, you can create new ways to game on the same games.

I agree but I also think it's a hell of a lot of work to add a track. Voting for submission points, creating each track, waiting for it to be passed by votes it's a long process and while i see the reasons for all of this it is work and people don't like to put in work for the most part especially when over at speedrun you can just submit right away.

Validated experts age and lose interest. They are not a long term answer but only a short-term appeasement. Of course, you also highlight the power trip problem.

I would disagree but if i am wrong i think a few experts who stick around for a few years is better than a bunch of people who have never seen or played the game in question for a life time. That's just my opinion though. Also i would argue that games themselves age and people generally loose interest so i think its all part of the course. Many 80's arcade records are long standing here and is anyone going for them? No.. because mostly no one cares anymore, all these games we play today will be obsolete eventually due to maxed out scores or lack of interest. Cosmic Avenger on Arcade is a great example. It is one of TG's longest standing records but the last person to bother with it was me and thats only because i played it as a kid. i put up a pretty terrible score and moved on because i don't want to invest the time it would take to get that good at the game.

As for the power trip, I've been taking a look at speedrun.com and i don't see any such thing occurring. They have a very nice well organized community over there. Not to say i haven't missed this happening but i don't see it nor do i see their experts disappearing without another taking the spot because as i said earlier it is a rewarding spot to be in, not a power trip (from what i've seen) just a spot where people are recognized as experts and thus making that spot appealing.

Look at the doom speedrun section for example, its years and YEARS old yet its still being managed by experts in the game as are many other titles. They have also done incredible work finding cheaters. Their level of dedication for certain game records and the effort they go to, to uphold records has to be admired.

Again not to crap on TG but i really like their way of doing things over there.

Originally Posted by rotunda

I agree but I also think it's a hell of a lot of work to add a track. Voting for submission points, creating each track, waiting for it to be passed by votes it's a long process and while i see the reasons for all of this it is work and people don't like to put in work for the most part especially when over at speedrun you can just submit right away.

Everything at TG has a work element just as at speedrun.com. Effort to understand the nature of the site, the aims/directions of the site, etc. TG happens to have a "currency" of Submission Points and a rating system of Credibility Rating to evaluate the extent of what can be done and by whom. They are both low-effort for someone focussed on a niche set of achievements. I have tried to get into speedrun.com but can't afford the effort. :P

Originally Posted by rotunda

I would disagree but if i am wrong i think a few experts who stick around for a few years is better than a bunch of people who have never seen or played the game in question for a life time. That's just my opinion though. Also i would argue that games themselves age and people generally loose interest so i think its all part of the course. Many 80's arcade records are long standing here and is anyone going for them? No.. because mostly no one cares anymore, all these games we play today will be obsolete eventually due to maxed out scores or lack of interest. Cosmic Avenger on Arcade is a great example. It is one of TG's longest standing records but the last person to bother with it was me and thats only because i played it as a kid. i put up a pretty terrible score and moved on because i don't want to invest the time it would take to get that good at the game.

That's just the culture of "now", surely? The passion of one individual can suck in aspects of the community. We see this here on TG - most guys that defend their #1 places quickly aren't sat playing the same game continuously improving their achievement on that one game but instead are reacting to the passion of another. The community input on any given game is limited by the number of people playing it/observing that play. Older games will go in-and-out of fashion.

Originally Posted by rotunda

As for the power trip, I've been taking a look at speedrun.com and i don't see any such thing occurring. They have a very nice well organized community over there. Not to say i haven't missed this happening but i don't see it nor do i see their experts disappearing without another taking the spot because as i said earlier it is a rewarding spot to be in, not a power trip (from what i've seen) just a spot where people are recognized as experts and thus making that spot appealing.

Look at the doom speedrun section for example, its years and YEARS old yet its still being managed by experts in the game as are many other titles. They have also done incredible work finding cheaters. Their level of dedication for certain game records and the effort they go to, to uphold records has to be admired.

Again not to crap on TG but i really like their way of doing things over there.

I would argue you've taken some highlights and put on rose-tinted spectacles. Yes, some people are still into old games (culture of "now" being the selector of games) and where someone is willing to invest effort, fruition occurs.

As for the power trip: that depends on the person holding the power & I'm glad you've only seen the better person(s).

Originally Posted by rotunda

As for the power trip, I've been taking a look at speedrun.com and i don't see any such thing occurring.

It really depends on the community. Have a look at the SF2 scene if you want an example of a halfwit running it.

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You want to go on a Pro PR tour for TG? Some thoughts:

Get rid of speedrunning here at TG. We don't have any significant scores, the rules are garbage, the implementation of speedrunning is garbage here. Point that section to Speedrunning.com with a lovely message of how that is what they do and score based WRs is what we do.

Get rid, or at least completely segment, pre-TGSAP scores. Sorry to all the hard earned legit scores, but its a stigma that will stay FOREVER. Nothing about those scores can be proven and TG's stubbornness when people come in and complain about some scores is a big sore point for them. Like when we asked for like 10 Speedrunning experts to come chime in on a score they all "knew" was bad. Non-video scores are considered trash these days. Make a whole page and talk about Todd and Billy and the work we've done to clean up the board but the impossible task of ever being 100% sure of ref based entry. Continue to digitalize old tapes that have been found to put legitimate video behind historic scores.

The amount of pain someone seems to need to go through to get their first score approved is a herculean effort. TGSAP means there are very few "official" rules and a TON of this is how we do it here. Having one free submission means if you screw up your first score, and honestly, the submitter probably got called out in a "unfriendly" way about it, you have to decide to put in the work to get more submission points just to try to get that one score accepted. I've been here years and I still find it difficult to find the correct place to reference if a rule is official or not. This one is tough because of how TGSAP is really just a series of random people critiquing a score.

I would suggest upping the free subs to 2 or more to give someone a chance to fail and still get a score on the board before having to go to work to get sub points. Also the entire layout of the rules and how TG works and the flow of score submission really needs to be looked at.

That's some quick thoughts. Discuss.

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Originally Posted by swaggers

You want to go on a Pro PR tour for TG? Some thoughts:

Get rid of speedrunning here at TG. We don't have any significant scores, the rules are garbage, the implementation of speedrunning is garbage here. Point that section to Speedrunning.com with a lovely message of how that is what they do and score based WRs is what we do.

Disagree wholeheartedly. While I've got plenty of fractious opinions on it (primarily stemming from the idea that these achievements are in any way "accurate"), TG should be welcoming of anything measurable.

Originally Posted by swaggers

Get rid, or at least completely segment, pre-TGSAP scores. Sorry to all the hard earned legit scores, but its a stigma that will stay FOREVER. Nothing about those scores can be proven and TG's stubbornness when people come in and complain about some scores is a big sore point for them. Like when we asked for like 10 Speedrunning experts to come chime in on a score they all "knew" was bad. Non-video scores are considered trash these days. Make a whole page and talk about Todd and Billy and the work we've done to clean up the board but the impossible task of ever being 100% sure of ref based entry. Continue to digitalize old tapes that have been found to put legitimate video behind historic scores.

Same happens at Speedrun.com: scores with missing evidence remain. At least here the TG-hosted TGSAP scores are backed up by them being hosted by TG.

Isn't there's an article already on those scores?

Originally Posted by swaggers

The amount of pain someone seems to need to go through to get their first score approved is a herculean effort. TGSAP means there are very few "official" rules and a TON of this is how we do it here. Having one free submission means if you screw up your first score, and honestly, the submitter probably got called out in a "unfriendly" way about it, you have to decide to put in the work to get more submission points just to try to get that one score accepted. I've been here years and I still find it difficult to find the correct place to reference if a rule is official or not. This one is tough because of how TGSAP is really just a series of random people critiquing a score.

The random people critique is how the adjudication remains fleixble and transparent. TG is the sum of its history and no single individual can carry that correctly.

Absolutely agree that submitting is an effort. Every site is so that's not going to change. Some people are willing to learn and others are not: that's the main difference in level of effort required by the individual. The individual track can also throw curveballs as every regular should know & therefore new peeps are at a disadvantage.

Originally Posted by swaggers

I would suggest upping the free subs to 2 or more to give someone a chance to fail and still get a score on the board before having to go to work to get sub points. Also the entire layout of the rules and how TG works and the flow of score submission really needs to be looked at.

Agreed.

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I imagine I won't get much support on this, but I still maintain, this is a HUGE World now, everything doesn't have to BE for everybody.

A somewhat odd analogy, personal to me, and mebbe a stretch-

I like racing.

:D

All kinds, even watching two raindrops going down a window.

Mostly grew up on dirt tracks, lost a couple decades to being a NASCAR fan, but then I got interested in the Formula One.

Lots of Friends that like IRL racing("In real life", not "Indy Racing League" I think Terr is the only person I know who pretends to like that...), and also lots of Friends that like to race on Video games.

Can't get anyone to play along with me on the games, really only got one friend interested in the real life sport, general concensus is "too many rules", somehow Track Limits seem to be most folks hangups.

Well, the reason for it is they are the elite. The most technical form of motorsports out there, competing at the very highest level, with many, many inferior levels below.

Took a while, really, for pop culture to catch on and appreciate it, but it appears to have started doing so, in the USA at least(I know it's bigger elsewhere than it is here already), they spend a good bit of time during broadcasts, explaining what is going on and all.

It's OK to put a hobby stock together, go out and run for fun.

It also, to me, seems ok to be willing to jump thru the proper hoops to be able to compete on the most prestigious racetracks that are out there.

Apologies, to those laughing and giggling at this point-I DO understand how you might feel about the TG scoreboard.

Sorry. The scores here are real, particularly TGSAP, and the process to eliminate scores that aren't legit is an ongoing issue, there's no "trust me Bro", or individual game monitors here with their own agendas.

The actual only reason there is negativity towards TG at this point is based on squeaky wheels, with their eyes and ears closed.

Originally Posted by The Evener

[Sorry didn't have time to look at the video yet, going by comments here]

That's a really interesting idea, Excelliron - a video (or series) that walks people through what TG is about, where it's going, and tackling some of these misconceptions directly. Just not sure how it would be pitched without it seeming too insecure. In the same vein, I know there are a couple of TG gamers that love streaming - maybe here's a topic for a future video - your impressions of the TG community, talking across some of these differences.

I don't have a clear picture to know for sure how TG could approach this issue about how speedrunning is currently set up here. Maybe my past approach was too passive, but I thought that new members interested in speedrunning could take ownership/lead the charge in proposing changes and revisions since they would know how to set up these tracks best. But I can also see the point where "nothing changes" unless TG proactively begins to undertake such work first to avoid scenarios where a new and curious speedrunner drops by, sees the track, and goes, "gawd, that's crap" and just moves on. But it's also a question of TG resources and priorities and the whole cost-benefit analysis. Is there a substantial group of prospective gamers that might walk through the door if "such and such" changes were done?

I'm personally very open to re-examining the "barrier to participation" rules. The boot-up gets brought up A LOT and it has tanked at least a few submissions I've seen from new submitters that mostly stream on Twitch. I don't have an inside track on this, but maybe as a community we could be more flexible if other communities of passionate gamers have achieved a level of trust in accepting their achievements without something like showing boot-up? But I hear Rotunda on this as well.

Sure, I'm sure the median age on this site is older, but we're all young at heart :) I think more "cross generational" interaction would break down some of these stereotypes and demonstrate that gaming can be an ageless pursuit.

i think when youre core is good, you can focus just on substance on image will eventually take care of itself. granted the "eventulaly" can be VERY long. At one point i was fed up and quit tg, in that time i did intellivsion stuff and talked alot with intellivsion speed runners even getting an accoutn there. The intellivision crew seems pretty intelligent and aware. some of them wnat nothing to do with tg, and thats fine they're still reasonable people who talk with those that do want something to do with tg, and those who do want something to do tg stsay informed.

theres likely other communities within speedrun that seeing and will spread the good news as it becomes better news.

i would imagine just more people with dual memberships naturally sharing their stories will get the word out far better than jace ever could through official means. i guess i'm saying its on us to branch out.

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