Originally Posted by Marcade

The personal profile page updates the WR and ESI count properly once scores get approved, but the "member leaderboard" counter still does not update those two stats at all.

Nice ESI spike Marc.

I suspect, and as mentioned in the past by several different people, and for better or for worse, that physical pinball scores are not included in WR or ESI count. It appears in your case that at least the ESI portion makes sense here. I've not dug into any details past ESI as the ESI info is glaringly easy to see.

Here is your missing 1.1K of ESI or so from the physical pinball ESI list:

Here is the pinball ESI leaderboard chart. You'll note Shatz's lead from pinball alone (14,400) along with all the people on this leaderboard exceed Rodrigo's 7,500 ESI by a long shot.

and here is what TG recognizes:

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Originally Posted by Max

Nice ESI spike Marc.

I suspect, and as mentioned in the past by several different people, and for better or for worse, that physical pinball scores are not included in WR or ESI count. It appears in your case that at least the ESI portion makes sense here. I've not dug into any details past ESI as the ESI info is glaringly easy to see.

Here is your missing 1.1K of ESI or so from the physical pinball ESI list:

Here is the pinball ESI leaderboard chart. You'll note Shatz's lead from pinball alone (14,400) along with all the people on this leaderboard exceed Rodrigo's 7,500 ESI by a long shot.

and here is what TG recognizes:

Ya. I do not understand that just because the top 10 in pinball are not registered here, they would not count overall. Afterall, pinball IS a game of "skill", thus the "Expert SKILL index" per PLATFORM will always makes sense here, in terms of the tracks "participation volume". The best of the best in pinball in the top 10 are just that! (most top 50 on that list are still active "A rated tournament players". My realistic goal is to be ranked within its top 2nd quartile. (eg. 7000 ESI)

When it comes to "overall platforms", ESI is just really PSI (PARTICIPATION SCORE index)

Why the prejudice towards the one platform? Arcade and MAME counts overall and reflects just fine, but the heavy (past participation) volume in Pinball does not? Why?

In the end, I just want consistency here is all. (And I just want to play pinball...both real and virtual.) Heh.

[QUOTE=Marcade;bt42524]

Ya. I do not understand that just because the top 10 in pinball are not registered here, they would not count overall. Afterall, pinball IS a game of "skill", thus the "Expert SKILL index" per PLATFORM will always makes sense here, in terms of the tracks "participation volume". The best of the best in pinball in the top 10 are just that! (most top 50 on that list are still active "A rated tournament players". My realistic goal is to be ranked within its top 2nd quartile. (eg. 7000 ESI)

When it comes to "overall platforms", ESI is just really PSI (PARTICIPATION SCORE index)

Why the prejudice towards the one platform? Arcade and MAME counts overall and reflects just fine, but the heavy (past participation) volume in Pinball does not? Why?

In the end, I just want consistency here is all. (And I just want to play pinball...both real and virtual.) Heh.

[/QUOTE]

I will say my personal opinion, not because I am #1 ESI and protecting myself, but Pinball Machines cannot be registered as console gaming ESI, there's no logical for that.

The old Twin Galaxies book are writen "Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records":

Why are separate Video Game and Pinball? Because are different machines! My personal opinion!

The best way is a Pinball Leaderboad and let the Console Leaderboad there!

The only way I can find to navigate to someone's profile page (with out typing it) is to click on their picture. If they don't have a picture, you can't get to their profile. The username, not the picture, should be the link to the profile.

Also, the only place the person's real name appears is on the score board and in a submission thread. So if a person has no scores, we don't know their name. Should that be part of the profile data?

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i believe (speculation) the "prejudice" against pinball has nothing to do with members not reregistering for tgsap as i'm pretty sure old members in other platforms do get esi


for new games, esi doesnt look at how many people you beat, it only looks at how many people at tg you beat
for pinball, and to a much lesser degree arcade and some older consoles, i believe (could be wrong so i'm not prepared to prove it)that vast majority of scores were imported from affiliates and so you're lloking at everyone you beat at tg and elsewhere

thats a real apples to oranges to say "for any platform you play on you only get esi for tg people you beat except pinball where we'll look at non tg people you beat as well".

the idea solution of course would be just not count the imported scores when calculating esi -- not just not count the scores for the owenr of the score, but not count the score as being beaten either by those who beat it. good luck getting a chance like that through. so in the meantime they seem to just pull it out. i think they knew including pinball esi exposed a huge problem and rather than correct it, it was easier to hide it by removing pinball.

i do think it would be safe to include newly created pinball tracks as well in esi since thats not imported score


right now though, if you were to merge, pinball would overwhelm everything else, and a merge of pinball with the other platforms for overall esi would be no different than deleting every singel other platform except pinball as the pinball esi would render the rest completley insignificant.

Originally Posted by Siliconian

I will say my personal opinion, not because I am #1 ESI and protecting myself, but Pinball Machines cannot be registered as console gaming ESI, there's no logical for that.

The old Twin Galaxies book are writen "Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records":

Why are separate Video Game and Pinball? Because are different machines! My personal opinion!

The best way is a Pinball Leaderboad and let the Console Leaderboad there!

Sorry Rodrigo, but in all due respect, I simply cannot buy into that logic.

Arcade, MAME, Classic computer games, and even Novelty platforms, are not CONSOLE games either. Why do they count in the leaderboard tally? (All have their own chapters in the same book that you reference, by the way)

Was I the only one that noticed, during "TG's PSI" infancy, during its testing phase before the "ESI" term existed, Pinball was actually briefly included? It lasted for a day or so, then immediately swooped under the rug for whatever reason.

I would like to officially hear @Jace Hall stance on this, when he is not too busy. A lot of us would, actually.

Originally Posted by Marcade

Sorry Rodrigo, but in all due respect, I simply cannot buy into that logic.

Arcade, MAME, Classic computer games, and even Novelty platforms, are not CONSOLE games either. Why do they count in the leaderboard tally? (All have their own chapters in the same book that you reference, by the way)

Was I the only one that noticed, during "TG's PSI" infancy, during its testing phase before the "ESI" term existed, Pinball was actually briefly included? It lasted for a day or so, then immediately swooped under the rug for whatever reason.

I would like to officially hear @Jace Hall stance on this, when he is not too busy. A lot of us would, actually.

Here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/content.php/4142-In-Case-You-Missed-it-STATE-OF-THE-GALAXIES-BROADCAST-2-26-16

Originally Posted by Barthax

Here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/content.php/4142-In-Case-You-Missed-it-STATE-OF-THE-GALAXIES-BROADCAST-2-26-16

Good find @Barthax ...So it seemed Jace gave the players the "democratic" choice back then. I totally missed out on that discussion from 3 years ago, as I would of had a lot to say on the topic. Heh.

If I receive a minimum of 3 separate gamers (besides myself) who back up my stance to the #righttoplaypinball campaign, i shall start another petition on it. (Oh no, here we go again) :P

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Originally Posted by Marcade

Good find @Barthax ...So it seemed Jace gave the players the "democratic" choice back then. I totally missed out on that discussion from 3 years ago, as I would of had a lot to say on the topic. Heh.

If I receive a minimum of 3 separate gamers (besides myself) who back up my stance to the #righttoplaypinball campaign, i shall start another petition on it. (Oh no, here we go again) :P

I fully endorse the service/product/opinion in the face of the TG immovable object. :P

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Originally Posted by Barthax

I fully endorse the service/product/opinion in the face of the TG immovable object. :P

Is that an official "YES" vote to the #righttoplaypinball campaign? :P

Originally Posted by Marcade

Is that an official "YES" vote to the #righttoplaypinball campaign? :P

I fully support your right to piss into the wind. ;) Before you petition, you might first like to get a line of people to join you, pissing into the wind together.

Doesn't bother me one way or the other (ESI, that is) so long as I don't get wet from the attempts. :P

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I agree with @Marcade that arcade is not console gaming either. In my view Pinball has as much value as arcade games.

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Originally Posted by Barthax

I fully support your right to piss into the wind. ;)

HAHA... As long as its going WITH the wind, not AGAINST it!

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#righttoplaypinball

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Just to lay down some thoughts... with no intent to sway in either direction.

The pinball section is largely composed of copy&paste unverified scores from enumerable sources (I located the source material for multiple of them long after they were on the scoreboard - there was a post in the referee forums with an attachment containing the research).

As when the pinball section was a part of the overall PSI (as-was back then), the highest non-pinball-exclusive TG participant was way down the list.

Pinball is incredibly difficult to monitor in terms of advantages from video alone which is why [edit: pre-TGSAP] TG's own verified scores are Referee and Witness only (possibly no Witness, just guessing that bit).

There's the long-standing argument against tracking any pinball machine scores due to the disparity across machines and even the same machine across time. So high ESI from pinball suggests random advantage with no S in the ESI.

The pursuit of overall ESI will have a radical shift in perspective if pinball is incuded - in Marcade's direction given current participants to make known their opinion.

The pursuit of overall ESI will remain as is if it is not - in Rodrigo's direction given current pariticpants to make known their opinion.

I do not see any advantage ESI has given to TG other than a (from my perspective) rise in submissions from some quarters. I therefore don't see any advantage for TG to side-line all the current [edit: focus of the] scoreboard in favour of highlighting an even lesser-used portion of the scoreboard [edit: with even more suspicious scores?].

Originally Posted by Barthax

Pinball is incredibly difficult to monitor in terms of advantages from video alone which is why [edit: pre-TGSAP] TG's own verified scores are Referee and Witness only (possibly no Witness, just guessing that bit).

There's the long-standing argument against tracking any pinball machine scores due to the disparity across machines and even the same machine across time. So high ESI from pinball suggests random advantage with no S in the ESI.

I can argue the same exact thing for arcade machines. No two machines are ever alike!

Why no ESI prejudice towards that platform? ( Referee/witness/TGSAP eras)

Did the wind shift direction? No Whirlwind pinball for you!!! heh. :P

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Originally Posted by Marcade

I can argue the same exact thing for arcade machines. No two machines are ever alike!

Why no ESI prejudice towards that platform? ( Referee/witness/TGSAP eras)

Did the wind shift direction? No Whirlwind pinball for you!!! heh. :P

:D Think of the business model for pre-Jace TG: it has always been Arcade first.

Originally Posted by Barthax

:D Think of the business model for pre-Jace TG: it has always been Arcade first.

Yup. Prior TG ownership... A barcade owner- 50% ownership , an arcade owner 25%, and a private arcade collector 25% .

That was a dark 9 month period in TG history, that led to an inevitable abortion. If you wanted to submit a console performance, you had to pay $$$ to the ref, unless you were in "cahoots" with their arcade scene. The international gamers, such as yourself, got screwed the most.

A great example of past prejudice.

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Originally Posted by Marcade

A great example of past prejudice.

Hehe, yeah, just the last one in a long line starting with... an arcade owner trying to highlight his own arcade as the place to set scores. :D Thankfully, quite the opposite kind of light, back then.

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