yeah spaces all get removed.

i guess we could work around it and maybe use an underscore or dash or period or some character to simulate a space

sorry not spaces, carriage returns

datagod liked this post

I just gotta say the irony of it all - duplicating JJT tracks with better rules only to find that they’re a formatting mess - is almost too much for me. Everyone please stop duplicating tracks and everyone please just be patient and deliberate with track edits by admin.

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Barthax, Blackflag82 liked this post

When I was creating the new track, I realized it isn't a complete duplicate. JJT's track is confusing and in my opinion incorrectly disallows wall riding. MY track does indeed allow wall riding. Thanks for your concern though. We will all get through this together.

Game Play
- 1 player only
- Use any difficulty
- Use any motorcycle
- Use any transmission
- In game modifications are allowed


Hardware
- Conversion kits are allowed
- Show the arcade cabinet to verify the correct peripherals including handlebar, throttle and hand brakes


Settings (verified during game play)
- 1 Turbo boost at the start, 3 in reserve
- Start time 80 seconds or less
- Bonus time can be 30 seconds or less



Shortcuts
- all official shortcuts created by the programmers are allowed
- glitches that allow for game play NOT desired by the original programmers are NOT allowed. This includes breaking boundaries (travelling through walls, leaving the map temporarily)
- cheat codes are NOT allowed

- wall riding (rubbing up against a wall while driving) IS allowed, as this is an arcade game and is not intending to be a realistic depiction of motorcycle racing

Originally Posted by datagod

When I was creating the new track, I realized it isn't a complete duplicate. JJT's track is confusing and in my opinion incorrectly disallows wall riding. MY track does indeed allow wall riding. Thanks for your concern though. We will all get through this together.

Game Play
- 1 player only
- Use any difficulty
- Use any motorcycle
- Use any transmission
- In game modifications are allowed


Hardware
- Conversion kits are allowed
- Show the arcade cabinet to verify the correct peripherals including handlebar, throttle and hand brakes


Settings (verified during game play)
- 1 Turbo boost at the start, 3 in reserve
- Start time 80 seconds or less
- Bonus time can be 30 seconds or less



Shortcuts
- all official shortcuts created by the programmers are allowed
- glitches that allow for game play NOT desired by the original programmers are NOT allowed. This includes breaking boundaries (travelling through walls, leaving the map temporarily)
- cheat codes are NOT allowed

- wall riding (rubbing up against a wall while driving) IS allowed, as this is an arcade game and is not intending to be a realistic depiction of motorcycle racing

Can someone please, in very simple terms, explain what the exact problem is with the Super Bike 2 tracks, and WHY duplicates are being created? There seems to be a large around of drama around this, and a bunch of messages that are difficult to follow.

What is the primary point and issue?

Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Can someone please, in very simple terms, explain what the exact problem is with the Super Bike 2 tracks, and WHY duplicates are being created? There seems to be a large around of drama around this, and a bunch of messages that are difficult to follow.

What is the primary point and issue?

1) Community thinks JJT's wording is too wordy and/or difficult to follow.

2) The rulesets differ in the concept of "wall riding". JJT's set prohibits "wall riding" whereas Datagod's set permits "wall riding". In my opinion, neither set agrees on the general concept anyway. https://www.twingalaxies.com/datagod/wall/10238/please-review-arcade-super-bikes-2/page/2#comment77306

Jace Hall thanked this post

Jace - it started when JJT made ‘Super Bikes 2’ tracks but just ctrl+c ctrl+v the rules from ‘Super Cars’ so there are rules specific to cars that got jammed into a motorcycle racing game rule set.

Then JJT made a duplicate game ‘Super Bikes 2 by Raw Thrills’ and adjusted the rules about cars and made them about motorcycles. So there are two sets of tracks just by him, one of which is arguably unable to be submitted to because of the requirements in the rules that pertain to cars and not motorcycles.

Datagod then took a whack at it and made some tracks for Super Bikes 2 that, as mentioned by Barthax, allow one previously-prohibited tactic yet keep a lot of the other wordy fluff that is part of the original dissatisfaction with the JJT rule sets (in my opinion).

So in some cases we have three tracks for the same race - ‘Super Bikes 2’ with the car rules, ‘Super Bikes 2 by Raw Thrills’ with the bike rules, and ‘Super Bikes 2’ by Datagod that allows wall riding but the description doesn’t indicate a difference from the original track that prohibits it.

I’m not against making tracks that mirror another with one key gameplay difference. That happens often enough to track a specific subset of competition. What I and others take issue with is creating tracks that don’t jive with the form and function with the rest of the tracks here at TG dot com. Sometimes it’s a redundancy with Global Rules and Guidelines, sometimes it’s an omission of info from the description, and sometimes it’s just a badly-formatted rule set. All could be tinkered with if there was an edit feature.

None of this would be necessary if everyone was an infallible track writer. But that’s probably unrealistic.

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Blackflag82, Barthax, Snowflake, Excelliron, starcrytas liked this post

I would like to add that I created the new track to set an example how it should be created under the new approach.

1) Track description and rules were as concise and clear as possible. I asked several non-TG gamers about their opinions on the definition of glitches and wall riding before rewording the track rules. Wall riding in particular stuck out to me as something that -- if properly defined -- should be allowed in a game such as this. It is NOT wall hacking, wall glitching, etc. It is simply rubbing up against a wall and not receiving real-world damage.

2) I tried to keep the spirit of JJT's rules, as he is the original founder and is clearly the most passionate TG member when it comes to this particular set of Raw Thrill's games.

3) I disagree with Ben's assertions, but that's ok. This is the nature of public discourse.

4) I reached out to the community via a wall post to review the new track and comment. If the community approved, the track would be funded by at least three people, under the new guidelines.

5) The word drama has negative connotations and I believe that it is unfair to use that word in this situation. We are all trying to abide by the new guidelines and create tracks that are easy to understand and fun to compete on.

6) There seems to be an imbalance in the amount of energy community members are willing exert in order to raise issues vs the amount of energy available by TG leadership to address these issues.

Snowflake, Barthax liked this post

the fast and furious series gets every bit as much drama as donkey kong. Its hard to explain the drama without restarting it. you know, if i were to give the story from my perspective it would reignate a defense from the opposing perspective. But there has been a long, strong, sharp difference of belefs on the best way to write the tracks with neither side willing to budge at all. And for the record yes, i believe one side shouldnt budge in the slightest. when one request is reasonable and one isnt, it doesnt make sense to meet in the middle. of course the other side feels the same way.

the new rules on track creation likely (not definitley at all lol) prevents similiar issues from occuring in the future but honestly theres probably no way to undo the damage done here on this game

Jace Hall thanked this post

Originally Posted by Snowflake

but honestly theres probably no way to undo the damage done here on this game

False. Delete all F&FSC tracks and SB2 tracks. For good measure delete all Batman tracks too and anything else JJT has created. That is the only way to undo the damage.

Excelliron, thegamer1185 liked this post

Originally Posted by sdwyer138

False. Delete all F&FSC tracks and SB2 tracks. For good measure delete all Batman tracks too and anything else JJT has created. That is the only way to undo the damage.

well i'd like that solution, i guess i meant it wont end the drama. in fact i guarantee you the good solution will result in much drama

Originally Posted by Snowflake

But there has been a long, strong, sharp difference of belefs on the best way to write the tracks with neither side willing to budge at all.

Not entirely true. JJT refused to budge and TG took away his right to make any tracks. The community actually worked really hard to meet him somewhere in the middle (creating tracks that included a lot of his unnecessary rules but in a way that was at least clear and properly formatted). I recall many of us agreeing that they were not good rule sets, but that they were usable.

JJT actually agreed to those rules, but threw a tantrum over the settings needing to be shown. and that was added. A couple weeks of submissions later and JJT's arcade stopped wanting to deal with him, and told him "no" to opening up the game to show the settings. He then came back and asked Franny to remove the settings requirement from the rule sets without subs. This simply reiterated to Juan that if he threw a tantrum long enough and loud enough he would eventually get his way...

End result: the community has actually compromised with JJT many times, but JJT doesn't use it as a compromise, but as a foothold to start his tantrums from and slowly push back the rulesets into a mess of formatting and questionable merit

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Snowflake, sdwyer138, datagod, starcrytas, thegamer1185 liked this post

ok i accept error again. people budged, already compromised, and then refused to compromise even further as they already compromised as much as they (we, i was included) felt they could.

i'm trying not to provoke jjt, but in wording it to take some hits myself, i inadvertently hit you guys in the process, sorry about that.

datagod, bensweeneyonbass thanked this post

Blackflag82 liked this post

Thank you for the feedback.

1.) The matter of any single person creating and completely funding tracks on their own has been resolved. So hopefully that will limit future problems related to that topic.

2.) In regard to the Super Bikes 2 tracks, etc. We are not going to delete all of JJT's tracks as suggested. However, we will clarify and simplify the rules on them if we are provided with exactly what the community thinks needs to be placed there and given a list of all the tracks that need the clarification. (Please do that in the general forum, and not on this thread)

3.) @admin staff is addressing the formatting loss issue that takes place during track creation, as well as making sure that track founders can edit their track rules as long as there are no leaderboard entries.

In regard to #3, please notify us if this does not get done in a timely fashion. There is currently a lot on our plate and these items can sometime slip through the cracks.

6) There seems to be an imbalance in the amount of energy community members are willing exert in order to raise issues vs the amount of energy available by TG leadership to address these issues.

This is much more related to prioritization, as opposed to available energy.

Thank you.

Blackflag82, bensweeneyonbass, thegamer1185 thanked this post

Snowflake liked this post

Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

Thank you for the feedback.

1.) The matter of any single person creating and completely funding tracks on their own has been resolved. So hopefully that will limit future problems related to that topic.

2.) In regard to the Super Bikes 2 tracks, etc. We are not going to delete all of JJT's tracks as suggested. However, we will clarify and simplify the rules on them if we are provided with exactly what the community thinks needs to be placed there and given a list of all the tracks that need the clarification. (Please do that in the general forum, and not on this thread)

3.) @admin staff is addressing the formatting loss issue that takes place during track creation, as well as making sure that track founders can edit their track rules as long as there are no leaderboard entries.

In regard to #3, please notify us if this does not get done in a timely fashion. There is currently a lot on our plate and these items can sometime slip through the cracks.



This is much more related to prioritization, as opposed to available energy.

Thank you.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but currently the new "10 points per voter" rule only works on the first vote. After that, the system will let the same voter vote again (though I'm not sure if the track will actually go live when it reaches the vote quota without 3 separate voters).

Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES

Thank you for the feedback.

1.) The matter of any single person creating and completely funding tracks on their own has been resolved. So hopefully that will limit future problems related to that topic.

2.) In regard to the Super Bikes 2 tracks, etc. We are not going to delete all of JJT's tracks as suggested. However, we will clarify and simplify the rules on them if we are provided with exactly what the community thinks needs to be placed there and given a list of all the tracks that need the clarification. (Please do that in the general forum, and not on this thread)

3.) @admin staff is addressing the formatting loss issue that takes place during track creation, as well as making sure that track founders can edit their track rules as long as there are no leaderboard entries.

In regard to #3, please notify us if this does not get done in a timely fashion. There is currently a lot on our plate and these items can sometime slip through the cracks.



This is much more related to prioritization, as opposed to available energy.

Thank you.

in response to point 2 i have created this thread https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/240775-Fixing-fast-and-furious-super-bikes-rules?p=1142069#post1142069

datagod, Jace Hall thanked this post

Originally Posted by sdwyer138

False. Delete all F&FSC tracks and SB2 tracks. For good measure delete all Batman tracks too and anything else JJT has created. That is the only way to undo the damage.

Exactly!! Wipe the scores and tracks from existence, let everybody keep whatever it was they earned on them for taking the time to adjudicate. Start over. Clean slate. I do not think this will alter any of JJT's score either as the rules will more than likely be much simpler to understand, and he can resubmit the runs without having to replay them. With the "New Track" process, none of this should happen again since 3 others must confirm the rules make sense.

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Exactly!! Wipe the scores and tracks from existence, let everybody keep whatever it was they earned on them for taking the time to adjudicate. Start over. Clean slate. I do not think this will alter any of JJT's score either as the rules will more than likely be much simpler to understand, and he can resubmit the runs without having to replay them. With the "New Track" process, none of this should happen again since 3 others must confirm the rules make sense.

Read the above from admin staff (I liked that admin staff tagged themselves, I laughed). I like this process, however I do think the the duplicate tracks should be removed since the rules would be the same on both tracks wouldn't they? The specific wording issue that I see is changing anything regarding "cars", "steering wheel", "pedals", to something more relatable to the game like "motorcycle", "handle bars", "throttle". I'm sure another thread can be created to address this, ha.

Originally Posted by Bishop Black

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but currently the new "10 points per voter" rule only works on the first vote. After that, the system will let the same voter vote again (though I'm not sure if the track will actually go live when it reaches the vote quota without 3 separate voters).

@admin staff plz fix!

Bishop Black liked this post

Originally Posted by sdwyer138

False. Delete all F&FSC tracks and SB2 tracks. For good measure delete all Batman tracks too and anything else JJT has created. That is the only way to undo the damage.

Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Exactly!! Wipe the scores and tracks from existence, let everybody keep whatever it was they earned on them for taking the time to adjudicate. Start over. Clean slate. I do not think this will alter any of JJT's score either as the rules will more than likely be much simpler to understand, and he can resubmit the runs without having to replay them. With the "New Track" process, none of this should happen again since 3 others must confirm the rules make sense.

This is just hatred in dilute form. Calling for the deletion of another member's contributions is disgraceful.

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