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Snowflake
06-21-2019 at 09:29 AM
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Accidental leeching question

So theres some games where there are real grey areas, and in the extreme cases leeching is obvoius, but in a minor case tough. naturally when its tough to know where to draw the line, does it mean just dont draw the line at all and allow it? or does it mean draw the lineat allowing nothing and sometimes feeling bad that was harsh? or do we be very arbitrary all enforcing our own line?

to explain, think of a game where you're not progressing, but not intentionally, simply because respawning enemies keep getting in your way. at that point you're trying to win, and yes you're not progresssing, also yes you're gaining ponts due to your lack of progression, but its really not your fault. in those cases i think we all accept some points, but does that open the door to allow it too far?

all the spots on contra (sorry to bring up that old would buts it anexample everyone knows), its easy to imagine someone hitting respawning enemies for a little while simply because they were afraid of them and didnt feel they could safely take a progression show
in intellivions beauty in the beast, (sort of a donky kong clone) you might jump extra rocks (barrels) to purposely leech or you might just be afraid to pogress faster
In arkanoid, the enemies can absoutely get in your way and tempoarily halt progression, on the other hand you could puprosely hunt them

any precedent on how this is dealt with, or how we should deal with it going forward?

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  1. Fly's Avatar

    case by case basis. BOOM!


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  2. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    First, I'll admit, my, umm..."issue" with words is much worse-I like to use ones that I'm not quite sure of their meaning, I think I get about 50/50 results, lol, and my sentence interrupts are TERRIBLE!


    Does spellcheck not work on your PC?

    ;P

    Teasing, but you address serious issues, and you DO have very solid, helpful input to the scene here, I worry that people that don't know you may be put off by it.


    As to the question, it's actually a pretty simple answer-it depends on how much others care about the game being played, and/or the gamer playing it.


    Not citing examples, but I've seen a score or two go through with obvious leeching, on games that are so under the radar that people who haven't played it don't even know what's going on, and don't really care.

    I've also had subs, fitting one of your explanations, where I felt I was doing everything humanly possible to stay alive(i.e., Vettel at Canada. I like him a little more now...), but based on others knowledge, I "should have been more skillful". I'm not bitter or in disagreeance over any of them, just saying.

    (I did just have to fight the spellcheck, btw, it was insisting "disagreeance" was wrong, [is again now], lol, but eventually agreed and dropped the red line...?).


    Also another one you cited-Beauty and the Beast. I remember leeching being mentioned on it not long after I played it(not on my sub, if I even subbed on it, I can't remember), and remember thinking the game was so hard that I couldn't imagine how, so "ability to leech" is often more skill-based than some think, and certainly other times not hard at all.





  3. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    In fairness to you, it looks like you cleaned up several errors while I was typing my post, good on you!

    :)

  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    this is unedited, so in this partciular case if the spelling error is no longer there its cause i never made it. i misspell all the time and people think its weird i can care so much about details but not that. my thing is, even being off by 1/100000 of a pound or a degree can sometimes make a difference, so for facts every detail matters. little things where you think "they know what i mean" well maybe they dont know what you mean and that detail matters. contrast that to me saying "my favorite color is blew" at that point you can be 100% sure of what i meant so in those cases no i dont care about the details of spelling.

    on to beauty and the beast. we discussed this, and you're right, the type of leeching the rules outlaw is a moot point cause leeching that way is so hard, that either you just plain cant do it, or if you can pull it off you're so amazing you deserve it. just progressing would be easier. as always, rules written by idiots

    what the rules dont cover though, is while they expliclity rule out one type of leeching, theres a far more insidious type. whatever i'll share it, and hopefully me sharing this knowledge doesnt just encourage people to do it. you earn lives based on floors climbed. you can earn two lives per building. but if you fall of the top you only lose one life. now that type of leeching would be very easy. climb the first bulding, purposely fall of the top, and climb again. you'll get all the lives and points you want. problem is, the reason falling off is an option is because it can be hard to avoid falling off, so if someone accidentally falls off do we DQ then? well if we dont DQ them its unfair to the more skilled players who didnt fall off and earn extra lives as a result. a tough call either way

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  5. swaggers's Avatar

    It needs to be set per game. Like Contra 3 you just get to do whatever the F you want.

    It's super subjective. I vaguely recall one of @Rogerpoco (maybe wasn't his) Tapper runs where someone claimed he had leeched because he just wasn't good enough to finish the room fast enough.

    As with all of TG it's really just what you can get away with.

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  6. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by swaggers

    It needs to be set per game. Like Contra 3 you just get to do whatever the F you want.

    It's super subjective. I vaguely recall one of @Rogerpoco (maybe wasn't his) Tapper runs where someone claimed he had leeched because he just wasn't good enough to finish the room fast enough.

    As with all of TG it's really just what you can get away with.


    I don't think it was mine, but I do remember dilly dallying in the early levels just long enough that I kinda thought someone might say something(Atari 5200), I'm a little oblivious still to leeching in general, but I knew I wasn't having to try too hard to stay alive.

  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    Tapper has an invisible timer where if you take too long you lose so leeching is impossible. Anyone calling tapper leeching is whining without knowing the game. Besides it’s a marathon game and you need to go fast to get enough points before you pass out

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  8. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    any precedent on how this is dealt with, or how we should deal with it going forward?

    I say check out the Contra 3 dispute. You can leech areas for over a hour no problem.
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  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    Ok I obviously meant on games where your roommate isn’t a referee


    In particular I have questions about krigmans nes arkanoid. His score would take heavy leeching of the enemies so it’s a possible score but leeched further some accidental leeching is bound to happen so I don’t feel right challenging it without being able to say how much leeching is too much

  10. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Friendly reminder @Snowflake aka Snowbilly there are no rules in Thunderdome™

  11. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Actually on a serious note it's really something that the community needs to agree on and address globally but the chances of everyone agreeing with each other is slim to none. I've seen other sites handle it to the extreme before. For example I have a friend that submitted a score to RU and it got rejected for point leeching cause he lost his power ups and tried to farm for more to go on which you needed to do to complete the game.

  12. The Evener's Avatar

    Yes, it would be case by case. Check out the submissions for Spike on the Vectrex, both accepted and rejected.

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  13. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    Yes, it would be case by case. Check out the submissions for Spike on the Vectrex, both accepted and rejected.


    Lol, you knew EXACTLY one of the games I was talking about!

    I swear, I was just trying "not to die"!!!


    :P

  14. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerpoco



    Lol, you knew EXACTLY one of the games I was talking about!

    I swear, I was just trying "not to die"!!!


    :P

    I hear ya, Roger, I was a bit antsy playing that game myself because of that. It's a struggle on the advanced levels to, well, advance without finding yourself waiting for things to "line up" so you can start climbing ladders and jumping platforms and hopefully make it to the top seamlessly. Sometimes, you have to double back and keep jumping, making Spike and the "accidental leeching" issue a good example - it's a blurry line. At least with the TGSAP, we preserve the video and associated submission discussion - may not necessarily help with other games that wrestle with accidental leeching, but at minimum Spike gamers can always revisit the evidence of previous submissions to gauge their own game play.

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  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    if thats how its to be handled then i would imagine disputes are impossible. if theres no way to clear cut proof whats unacceptable then we cant dispute.

    well, for what its worth, i hope we all as track creators going forward will be careful to create tracks where such things arent possible. whether that means speed running instead of points, levels instead of score (highest level is sort of still a point), or explicitly allow leeching up to X times so as to cover accidents and even allow a buffer for some intentional leeching i guess can very by creator, but i hope we'll at least all be comitted to not making the problem worse

    Updated 06-21-2019 at 11:39 PM by Snowflake
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