All individual scores are treated equally and considered valid until definitively proven otherwise.
. According to this policy, the disputed Pac Man record is still considered valid. I am offering you the opportunity to conclusively prove the record invalid. All you have to do is release the footage of the Pac Man gameplay. Someone genuinely facing legal threats from the claimant of said record would gladly seize the opportunity I am offering.
. I raised an official Twin Galaxies dispute, in which requests were made for the relevant evidence, which you clearly demonstrated is in your possession. There is nothing "private or personal" about the dispute, so I shall dismiss your insinuation as nonsense, especially as you are undeniably guilty of withholding the aforementioned evidence. Perhaps you would care to explain why you did so, within the context of the massive quantity of resources you lavished on the DK dispute.
There have been no insinuations toward anyone as I was speaking generally.
The dispute that you are referring to contained absolutely no objective definitive evidence presented by the dispute claimant or anyone else that rose to a level which warranted Twin Galaxies administrative attention of any kind.
As stated previously, Twin Galaxies has limited interest in expending significant attention or resources investigating any dispute claim that is based on speculation, especially one derived from the basis of hearsay and other totally subjective presentations.
In this specific situation, the speculation even goes as far as the nature of the "video tape" that you seem to be requesting as "evidence" and suggesting that I am somehow "withholding the evidence."
To be clear on that matter, as far as I am aware, to-date there has never been any statement made by Twin Galaxies about that specific tape in any regard as to who the performance on that tape was attributed to. There has only been speculative public assumption on that item.
This TG policy regarding pure speculation and hearsay as being considered inadequate from an evidentiary standpoint in TG's view was made clear from the very beginning of the dispute claim system's existence.
Certainly people can speculate all they want on anything they want. That's up to them. However when they file a dispute claim, the claimant needs to be prepared to support their claim with definitive and objective evidence of their claim. The onus in purely on the claimant and no one else.
Any request by the claimant for Twin Galaxies to do their work for them and to actually produce the initial evidence to support their claim will be rejected.
Twin Galaxies will only do the necessary work to verify and confirm the validity of the definitive and objective evidence that drove the dispute process to warrant TG administrative attention and had already been supplied by the claimant or others within the dispute claim itself, before TG has done anything.
Now conversely, the DK dispute claim I believe you referenced in comparison was not rooted in subjectivity.
That dispute claim was rooted in a demonstrable technical affirmation supported by a supplied objective technical example that could be independently verified, measured and repeated. Therefore in that case, the matter ultimately rose to warrant administrative verification and Twin Galaxies was able to work to verify and confirm the validity of the definitive and objective evidence that was already present and supplied by the claimant.
. According to this policy, the disputed Pac Man record is still considered valid. I am offering you the opportunity to definitively prove the record invalid. All you have to do is release the footage of the Pac Man gameplay. Someone genuinely facing legal threats from the claimant of said record would gladly seize the opportunity I am offering.
You are correct that the policy states that all scores in the database are considered valid and must be treated equally. However the Pac Man record you refer to is not contained in the Twin Galaxies database. There is nothing present to consider as valid. That means there is nothing to dispute. There is nothing to prove or investigate from a Twin Galaxies administrative perspective.
I'm not understanding what is so difficult of transferring a VHS tape to digital and why it's going to take mass amounts of resources to do so. Get a VCR, connect the VCR to any television device or perhaps a computer, then press record. Done. Fastest and cheapest way to do it. Best of all, the amount of time it would take a "resource" to start and end this process would be however long it takes to connect the VCR to any television device or perhaps a computer, then press record. Come back 10 years later if you want and edit the remaining dead time from the video. I could do this when I was 4, why has it become so troublesome now?
Seriously, you could upload that entire box of tapes in however long it takes for the tapes to play. You could do one tape a day and use up about 2-3 minutes of a "resources" time by starting, stopping, and then uploading the digital file to TG. Don't you dare forget to rewind the fucking tape though. You are just being a dick if you don't. God damn Blockbuster couldn't even figure out how to look at a tape and realize if it was rewound or not. Any tape is on the right it's not been rewound all the way. How hard is it people?!
Jesus, send me the tapes and I'll do it. I've got about 4 months of down time in the winter. I could upload every damn piece of tape/cd that TG has in it's possession while I play poker. Press play, record, upload, remove tape/cd, repeat. There is actually no reason you yourself couldn't do this task Jace. You could do this during your SOTG episodes, or whenever you have a staff meeting during your intro. Grab the TV cart and VCR like it used to be back in the high school days, everything is already set up and ready to go, put the tape in, press play and record from whatever device you choose to record with and your done until you come back in. Two birds with one stone.
Having any evidence of a score in your possession and not uploading it to your own website in this day and age really has no valid excuse as to why this can't and shouldn't have been done years ago. I brought this up quite a few years ago and you personally told me Jace that the only way to add evidence to an existing score was to start a dispute so the evidence was permanent. That is the only reason I know it is possible to add evidence to existing scores.
Either way, my offer still stands of uploading things for TG if they need someone to do it. I never heard of Billy Mitchell...or literally anyone on this site until I joined back in 2014 when I first discovered of TG's existence, so I have no bad mojo from anything that has ever gone on at TG and quite honestly could care less unless it involves cheating.
I hear what you are saying, and unfortunately can not spend all the time needed to address the various suggestions you are making here in a satisfactory manner.
However, beyond the straightforward comment I can make that your description of what may be required to accomplish the various suggested tasks may be a tad oversimplified, one basic thing I can say is that any time and attention spent doing one thing automatically means that the time and attention being used there is not spent doing something else - and therefore things like the law of diminishing returns and priorities are elements that deserve consideration.
For perspective, consider one example:
- You have one video tape. It is nearly 6 hours containing multiple different performances from someone.
- Digitizing the whole tape will take you 6 hours. You put a tape in, walk away, come back 6 hours later.
- Great, thats just the start.
- Now you need to go through the digital copy and catalog every single performance. This means you will be looking at the footage for all stop/start locations for each performance and writing down every final score on the tape you find.
- You need to either break the file up into multiple individual performance files, or you need to write down a detailed index of each performance and score you see on the tape. There could be hundreds if it is an Atari 2600 submission.
- You need to know which performance is supposed to be the record submission. Is it just one of them? Which one? What if its supposed to be many of them? There is no paperwork accompanying the tape. There is not even a name.
- Not having a name or paperwork, you now need to go through the TG database and cross-reference all the scores on that track to see if any of the performances match up so you can identify who's tape it potentially may be. Perhaps you need to try to contact the submitter just to verify it really is theirs.
- Unfortunately there is an issue: What if the tape was not already adjudicated by a ref and is not in the database? What if it was a tape that was submitted in the past but still is a pending submission? Need to make sure! Can't assume!
- Now you need to upload all the files into the TG cloud so the database can reference them. Make sure you name all the files properly so the system can recognize it! They cant just be any name!
- All done. Congrats! You have completed ONE tape. On to the next one!
There are other items I have left out that would need to be done, but I have run out of time!
I'm reasonably certain that all of this could not be accomplished using just "2-3 minutes of resources time" - but I will readily admit that I can't be certain.
All the above notwithstanding, your offer to help is appreciated and your desire to see all this data uploaded and made available it fully understood! It's just not as simple as it appears on the surface and will require a significant resource expenditure to execute and perform it correctly.
I tell you what Jace, if you spent a day putting those PacMan tapes online I bet they would draw more people to the site than all the editorial articles for the past six months combined.
You could set up a a stream that plays VHS tapes 24/7 and then let the viewers verify each of them. I'm sure there are many here that would love to help out with that. Which means you only have to change tape every x hours, change a text on screen that says what kind of video it is and let it play. There won't even be a need to store a digital file on the computer this way. There can be many hours of downtime between each video as well, as no harm will be done this way.
Just a suggestion (That has been suggested before btw, but I can't recall a response to it).
To be clear on that matter, as far as I am aware, to-date there has never been any statement made by Twin Galaxies about that specific tape in any regard as to who the performance on that tape was attributed to. There has only been speculative public assumption on that item.
. You, Mr Hall, are a liar. You held an "Open Discussion Live On Facebook About Billy Mitchell Score", in which you held the videocassette, labelled "6 HR PERFECT GAME PAC MAN", up to the camera. The title of your "discussion", and the label of the videocassette, confirm that the videocassette's recording depicts Pac Man gameplay by William Mitchell. You are the head custodian of Twin Galaxies, therefore your statements regarding said recording were on behalf of the organisation, and not personal. Since your "discussion" was held openly, on a public website, it was not private.
I have my suspicions about why you are prepared to tell such a blatant lie, but I won't state them, lest I be accused of engaging in speculation. All I shall do is call you out as a liar, and invite anyone who wishes to see the proof of your dishonesty to take a look at this TG post and this Facebook post.
I expect that you will now deny that you lied, maybe regale us with a cock & bull story about multiple videocassettes with the same label. Or perhaps you'll just skip right to banning me, for calling you what you are. I look forward to the next entertaining chapter of this farce.
hey jace, going with what you said about scores in the database a few points
there was a score, i believe it was tom duncans (i'll explain in a follow up issue a bug preventing me from finding it) where strong evidence did exist. so strong the score was removed. but dave, in something that became a pattern for him, violated the other rule of all evidnece is supposed to be in the thread, and instead opted to have private disucssions with tom and reinstate his score based on secret private discussions. so not only was the public evidence rule violaed, but it means a score in the database should really have its tape uploaded
the reason i cant find this score, is that when i click on anyone's name, i get their profile and scores, yet when i click on tom's name i get a message that i cant access his page
weird that only his profile is prevented from viewing. i'll assume thats just a weird bug though
also strong evidence was made against rodrigo lopes, and yet still no follow up
as far as i can tell here are the rules of the dispute 1. gather evidence 2. gather votes 3. wait for apollo legend to make a video 4. once apollo legend's video gets enough views, tg will examine the evidence
tom, rodrigo, todd, and billy were all refs (though with billy thers some semantics argument on calling him a ref) with strong evidence against them. however, only the refs that apollo made a video about were looked into. the other refs are allowed to get away scott free just like back in the day
there are no shortage of proven disputes that have gotten no attention. the only pattern i can find is that apollo legend didnt do a video on them
Might miff a friend or two, I apologize, and might come off as some kind of "Company Man", which I'm not, I have next to no relationship with anyone in Admin, they owe me nothing, nor do I feel any obligation to them(other than trying to have fun here).
All the issues raised so far in this posting have been important issues, that need to be addressed, surely(tho I personally give a whit...), somewhere.
But I think Jace was just putting up a few posts for fun conversation, trying to interact socially with the members of this site, and somehow this wall post has just turned into one big poo-flinging mess...
ok, i believe you're making youself clear in a round about way. Can i ask if this is related to your earlier decision to not uplaod scores? you had mentioned resources being limited, but now i'm getting the idea, true as that may be, that resources or not uploading old tapes are out of question is that correct?
Uploading old tapes for valid scores that are in the database (assuming that we have them) is purely limited by our available resources.I've also recently found all the INPs that were ever uploaded to TG. Again, making them available and associating them all with the corresponding scores will not happen until there is available resources to accomplish the task under proper protocols and supervision.
would we be able to make individual request to get an INP file for a disputed score?
would we be able to make individual request to get an INP file for a disputed score?
whats the point? look at all rudy's disputes still in the dispute section that you challenged for lack of evidence -- the one thing that we were told didnt even require votes -- that are not removed.
inp or not, if apollo legend dont make a video about it, it aint getting removed
There have been no insinuations toward anyone as I was speaking generally.
The dispute that you are referring to contained absolutely no objective definitive evidence presented by the dispute claimant or anyone else that rose to a level which warranted Twin Galaxies administrative attention of any kind.
As stated previously, Twin Galaxies has limited interest in expending significant attention or resources investigating any dispute claim that is based on speculation, especially one derived from the basis of hearsay and other totally subjective presentations.
In this specific situation, the speculation even goes as far as the nature of the "video tape" that you seem to be requesting as "evidence" and suggesting that I am somehow "withholding the evidence."
To be clear on that matter, as far as I am aware, to-date there has never been any statement made by Twin Galaxies about that specific tape in any regard as to who the performance on that tape was attributed to. There has only been speculative public assumption on that item.
This TG policy regarding pure speculation and hearsay as being considered inadequate from an evidentiary standpoint in TG's view was made clear from the very beginning of the dispute claim system's existence.
Certainly people can speculate all they want on anything they want. That's up to them. However when they file a dispute claim, the claimant needs to be prepared to support their claim with definitive and objective evidence of their claim. The onus in purely on the claimant and no one else.
Any request by the claimant for Twin Galaxies to do their work for them and to actually produce the initial evidence to support their claim will be rejected.
Twin Galaxies will only do the necessary work to verify and confirm the validity of the definitive and objective evidence that drove the dispute process to warrant TG administrative attention and had already been supplied by the claimant or others within the dispute claim itself, before TG has done anything.
Now conversely, the DK dispute claim I believe you referenced in comparison was not rooted in subjectivity.
That dispute claim was rooted in a demonstrable technical affirmation supported by a supplied objective technical example that could be independently verified, measured and repeated. Therefore in that case, the matter ultimately rose to warrant administrative verification and Twin Galaxies was able to work to verify and confirm the validity of the definitive and objective evidence that was already present and supplied by the claimant.
Hope that helps clarify.
. Since this post is complete & utter garbage, from beginning to end, I shall deal with the whole of it, although it pains me to do so.
Firstly, trying to excuse your insinuation that I conducted a "private or personal investigation" as "speaking generally" is risible. You very specifically identified the Pac Man score I disputed, in the same sentence, so the comment was about me. You want to insinuate, go ahead, but expect to be called out for it.
Secondly, there was no speculation included in the dispute. Five hours and thirty minutes is the average of five hours and six hours, this is a mathematical fact. Both five hours and six hours were claimed as the timespan of Mitchell's Pac Man game, therefore the disputed record is the average of these two unsubstantiated claims. This is fact, not speculation.
When you played part of the recording on the videocassette, labelled "6 HR PERFECT GAME PAC MAN", Mitchell's voice can clearly be heard. Anyone who wishes to match that voice to other recordings of Mitchell's running his mouth need only visit You Tube, where there is a plethora of uploads featuring the Mullet Muppet.
The photo of the "6 HR PERFECT GAME PAC MAN" videocassette, by virtue of the '6', is irrefutable evidence that the five and half hour timespan claim is invalid. Thus, the dispute I raised was 100% correct, and ought to have been dealt with seriously by TG admin. Any assertion to the contrary is garbage.
Uploading the footage on the "6 HR PERFECT GAME PAC MAN" videocassette, as requested, would have completed the body of evidence against the invalid timespan claim. You had it in your power to do so, and chose not to. This is what is known as withholding evidence. Any assertion that you did not withhold evidence is garbage.
Since you are the one in possession of the "6 HR PERFECT GAME PAC MAN" videocassette, it is your job to upload it, not mine. Your insinuation that I asked you to do something I should have done is garbage.
Thirdly, your glorification of the DK dispute is a tall, steaming pile of garbage. The original rationale of the dispute was not based on any analysis of Mitchell's gameplay, but on the suspicious nature of the "board swap" video. Compare the two disputes, if you want, but be so good as to get your facts straight.
- Now you need to go through the digital copy and catalog every single performance. This means you will be looking at the footage for all stop/start locations for each performance and writing down every final score on the tape you find.
- You need to either break the file up into multiple individual performance files, or you need to write down a detailed index of each performance and score you see on the tape. There could be hundreds if it is an Atari 2600 submission.
- You need to know which performance is supposed to be the record submission. Is it just one of them? Which one? What if its supposed to be many of them? There is no paperwork accompanying the tape. There is not even a name.
As someone who has had a ton of submissions in one video, the time to go through the footage and mark each stop/start times and the score is time consuming, but shouldn't take too long if you know what exactly to look for.
I hear what you are saying, and unfortunately can not spend all the time needed to address the various suggestions you are making here in a satisfactory manner.
However, beyond the straightforward comment I can make that your description of what may be required to accomplish the various suggested tasks may be a tad oversimplified, one basic thing I can say is that any time and attention spent doing one thing automatically means that the time and attention being used there is not spent doing something else - and therefore things like the law of diminishing returns and priorities are elements that deserve consideration.
For perspective, consider one example:
- You have one video tape. It is nearly 6 hours containing multiple different performances from someone.
- Digitizing the whole tape will take you 6 hours. You put a tape in, walk away, come back 6 hours later.
- Great, thats just the start.
- Now you need to go through the digital copy and catalog every single performance. This means you will be looking at the footage for all stop/start locations for each performance and writing down every final score on the tape you find.
- You need to either break the file up into multiple individual performance files, or you need to write down a detailed index of each performance and score you see on the tape. There could be hundreds if it is an Atari 2600 submission.
- You need to know which performance is supposed to be the record submission. Is it just one of them? Which one? What if its supposed to be many of them? There is no paperwork accompanying the tape. There is not even a name.
- Not having a name or paperwork, you now need to go through the TG database and cross-reference all the scores on that track to see if any of the performances match up so you can identify who's tape it potentially may be. Perhaps you need to try to contact the submitter just to verify it really is theirs.
- Unfortunately there is an issue: What if the tape was not already adjudicated by a ref and is not in the database? What if it was a tape that was submitted in the past but still is a pending submission? Need to make sure! Can't assume!
- Now you need to upload all the files into the TG cloud so the database can reference them. Make sure you name all the files properly so the system can recognize it! They cant just be any name!
- All done. Congrats! You have completed ONE tape. On to the next one!
There are other items I have left out that would need to be done, but I have run out of time!
I'm reasonably certain that all of this could not be accomplished using just "2-3 minutes of resources time" - but I will readily admit that I can't be certain.
All the above notwithstanding, your offer to help is appreciated and your desire to see all this data uploaded and made available it fully understood! It's just not as simple as it appears on the surface and will require a significant resource expenditure to execute and perform it correctly.
As @starcrytas mentions, if you know what you are looking for you can find a start and stop point pretty quickly. Lots of ways to do it. At any rate, my mistake in my first post regarding how uploading can be done quickly and with little effort from you and TG. I was referencing two different things in one point and that is my bad. I'll break it down a bit better.
The "2-3 minute" remark was meant for the 6 HOUR PAC MAN TAPE. Someone there could make that into a digital copy, upload it to the dispute thread and that would be it. The evidence that ONLY you have is uploaded, and that is as far as you need to go. The community would take it from there. WE are your resources. And gathering from this thread and several others, you won't have to worry about it not be examined thoroughly. Roto Rooter style. Reaching the back of your teeth style if you know what I mean.
The same would apply to all of the evidence tapes and CDs in TGs possession. Convert them to digital, upload them ANYWHERE to the website, and let the community do all the work for you. You don't think there aren't a lot of people on this website that would love to see/break down some of these older records? I bet you would have 2-3 people breaking down every game for you. We can timestamp them, categorize them for you, and best case scenario actually put the evidence with a name in the database. And best of all, it's FREE for you to let us do it.
I guess that is what I meant when I said it would only take you 2-3 minutes of resources a day to do this. You load the tape in the VCR, press play and convert the file. Upload the file and let us do the rest.
If a CD/Tape has records on it that aren't in the database and a name can't be found to match it, then I guess the evidence is at least on the website, and maybe a file can be made for scores not claimed. Hell, they could be entered in the database as an anonymous score just for reference. Someone submitted this score, here it is, we just don't have any records of who it was from. Might add competition to a game.
The only part of this whole things that TG would have to do after the fact of the upload would be adding the specific game evidence to the appropriate names in the database once found. That is an after thought, but at least then everything will be on the website and you won't have to hear "TG is withholding evidence for whatever reason" again...maybe...I doubt it.
hey jace, going with what you said about scores in the database a few points
there was a score, i believe it was tom duncans (i'll explain in a follow up issue a bug preventing me from finding it) where strong evidence did exist. so strong the score was removed. but dave, in something that became a pattern for him, violated the other rule of all evidnece is supposed to be in the thread, and instead opted to have private disucssions with tom and reinstate his score based on secret private discussions. so not only was the public evidence rule violaed, but it means a score in the database should really have its tape uploaded
also strong evidence was made against rodrigo lopes, and yet still no follow up
as far as i can tell here are the rules of the dispute 1. gather evidence 2. gather votes 3. wait for apollo legend to make a video 4. once apollo legend's video gets enough views, tg will examine the evidence
tom, rodrigo, todd, and billy were all refs (though with billy thers some semantics argument on calling him a ref) with strong evidence against them. however, only the refs that apollo made a video about were looked into. the other refs are allowed to get away scott free just like back in the day
there are no shortage of proven disputes that have gotten no attention. the only pattern i can find is that apollo legend didnt do a video on them
Jace went through and commented "Dispute is valid" on the obvious disputes like incorrect digit or outright impossible scores.
when a score is proven impossible just tell dave in private that nope it really is possible. so much for "only evidence in the official dispute" will be considered.
11-04-2019 at 07:34 PM
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