A valid score that is in the Twin Galaxies database is present due to a score performance authentication / verification event. Evidence was examined and the result was that a score got placed into the database.
As an aside, so how does that come into play in a case where I demonstrated a whole batch of scores were merely copied from some list on the internet, with no verification that the scores were possible, made sense, or even that the games themselves exist?
"The onus is on the dispute claimant to provide definitive evidence to support their own claim. "
That's not how it worked with the Dragster or the DK dispute. TG went outta their way with their own resources to provide evidence.
It is exactly how it worked. TG had never provided initial definitive and objective evidence to support any dispute claim that did not have any on its own. Definitive and objective evidence must be provided by the dispute claimant to warrant any verification and confirmation process.
In the Dragster and DK disputes Twin Galaxies only went to verify and confirm the definitive and objective evidence assertions AFTER they were already presented in the dispute claim thread.
At that point, during the TG verification and confirmation process, several things were additionally discovered and publicly provided - which will naturally happen if in fact the dispute claim's assertions are valid. The discovery and verification of truth will only lead to more discovery and verification of more truth.
A valid score that is in the Twin Galaxies database is present due to a score performance authentication / verification event. Evidence was examined and the result was that a score got placed into the database.
In the case of the DK dispute we were able to definitively establish specifically who verified the score into the TG database, and specifically confirm that person's possession of the tape performance evidence they used to attribute the score to a specific player name ID that was then stored in the Twin Galaxies database.
Since TG was able to definitively determine that the score performance that was attributed to a specific name ID in the database was not valid under the rules, TG removed the name ID and all scores associated with that name ID in our database.
Now historically there has been someone who has publicly claimed to be associated with that name ID, and there are years of demonstrable moments of receiving benefit from claiming that name ID as their identifier - so that is what it is - but if that person now wanted to claim that the name ID was not / is not theirs, that would be up to them do decide to do. Twin Galaxies does not have signed affidavit from that person stating that he is in fact the person that is the name ID in the TG database.
Whether ANY person claims the ID as theirs or not has no bearing on the fact that a score performance that was associated with a particular name ID was definitively found to be invalid - and invalid scores must be removed.
So in short, through definitive and objective evidence, the tape performance attribution was able to be conclusively made to the score and database name ID itself. This is why the whole chain-of-custody became so important in the conversation - along with all the multiple-sourced copies for cross matching.
This particular pac man tape currently has none of that.
Have you watched the tape and compared it to scores in the database and you are saying that is the result. Or are you saying that you because of the label on the tape?
I saw Elvis Costello again in concert for 11th time on monday. It was a great show.
Figured if we are going off topic i would go waaay off...
So....i wonder if we have any other lists of old scores to look at? Its been cool studying this list and looking them up. Some of these games have come a long way and have had their limits pushed.
I have to agree with Jace here... I mean when I go on Twitch and see someone play video games I don't know what video game they are playing or what the final score is without any paperwork provided.
Ya... but at least you know what track and ruleset they are submitting against! I agree that paperwork is definitely not needed for that!
Ya... but at least you know what track and ruleset they are submitting against! I agree that paperwork is definitely not needed for that!
Jace, that would be very apparent in the video as to what the game is. Finding the correct platform if necessary and what track it's under would also be very easy to figure out. By watching the video. And then comparing it to the track it's submitted under. Isn't that literally the exact premise of how TGSAP is done? I think? Now I think I must be missing something.
And not to mention if the score is already in the database, that pretty much solves what rule set SHOULD be used. I think you need to adjudicate scores my man to see how easy it is confirm if things where done the right way or not. It's not a long process once you do it several thousand times.
sorry jace but you are in fact quite mistaken. 1. matthew has provided the rodgrigo link before i could 2. again, see matt's comment 3. i dont believe you based on what i said above and waht i'm about to show again 4. half truth. people did provide links, you CLAIMED you would delete them, but you did not, further showing that even when you say you'll remove an item, if apollo legend doesnt make a video on it, you back off and opt not to remove what you said you would remove
If you look at the link you provided, you will see that the dispute poll is actually closed.
When I wrote the verdict in the thread, I actually clicked the function to accept the dispute and close the poll and cause the score to be removed.
When I did this the site registered the event and I moved on.
It looks like the service that performed the backend function did not complete for some reason.
Many of the disputes that I went through processed just fine, apparently some did not. ( @admin staff please look at this)
I would think that it might be productive to just kindly let me know instead of your current choice of accusatory antagonism. I'm honestly not sure why you choose to come at me in this manner as I've certainly never done anything to you that I am aware of - but perhaps its a style thing, I don't know.
I have no reason to lie to anyone about anything. What do you think my motivation would be to do? What's my big "win?"
This is the whole BS catch-22 garbage that makes the dispute system a complete and utter joke. How can anyone provide any evidence when TG is SITTING ON ALL THE PROOF. AND IT"S NOT TG'S PLACE TO CARE??? You're the f-ing organization that is putting these garbage scores on your database but you have NO RESPONSIBILITY TO CORRECT THEM? Just wow.
I'm pretty sure that the score you are referencing has already been removed from the database.
OK, this is obviously all just a joke to Twin Galaxies. So, now we have a William Mitchell impersonator sending in Pac Man footage. Shall I call him the Mullet Muppet Mimic?
The blatant lying & double standards is really pathetic. No point my participating in this farce any longer, I've learned all I care to learn. Congratulations, Mr Hall, you lose.
When you have to go to court and deal with each of these thing from a potential legal basis, it is very important that everything is clear.
There is no lying and there are no double standards. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have directly addressed your accusations with facts as best as possible.
Absolutely, I understand what you are saying and understand the hesitancy and worry that could go along with it. I'm not saying give any of us access to alter anything on the website or to edit anything on the tapes/CDs/upload. Yes, I did say I would do the task for you if you sent it to me, and I would. Never mind that part because your comments above make that impossible without scrutiny for anyone outside of TG to do this. All good there
Lets focus on TG doing this and the process. Think of it as adjudication. TG has the tapes. TG converts the tapes and uploads them. Where would you upload them though? The TGSAP system or the dispute system. Either works, but I would do the TGSAP system since more people view it, and the process is already there to upload for all to see. Since we don't know what's on the tapes/CDs, I would suggest make a completely made up console platform for this purpose so it's very clear what the purpose of the submissions is, and the Admin Staff would be the submitter. So we have an upload to a very obvious platform done by the Admin Staff. Yes, the set up for how you convert the tapes/CD's will take time to set up, but once it's done it should be very simple to convert and upload. At most it would take someone even vaguely familiar with the system to do this entire process in 5 minutes. Then the community watches the video just like any other submission through TGSAP. However, instead of voting, we are viewing for references to the TG leader board. What is the system, what is the game, what are the rules, what is the score. The community does it all for you.
TG is the only entity handling the original copies and uploading them to the website. That covers "someone could have altered/edited the video" argument. Unless someone accuses TG of editing but the community can not be blamed for that so the covers that base. The fact that the video would be posted to a TGSAP submission means people can then discuss what it is on the video. If someone questions what rules the game is being played under, it can be watched and discussed. It's all there. If something is still confusing, go back and figure it out. Nothing would be made final until it was very evident what the scores belong to if they indeed are in the database. With video evidence, that should be easy for everyone and TG to confirm.
Up to you I guess if this gets done or not. You have all the resources you need to do the documenting and tedious time work by allowing the community to do it for you. And I'm just going to be brutally honest, many people have wondered why TG hasn't been uploading these old submissions for awhile now. I think it would help give some much needed credibility back to TG if this was done. Even 1 tape a week would be enough if you ask me. I understand that someone there at TG would have to halt a project to do this task, but this is a very easy, quick task to do that would benefit TG greatly reputation wise and leaderboard accuracy wise.
Everything you said I understand. There was never a non-willingness to eventually get the data digitized and properly referenced. There is no issue there.
What I said was that it is a resource issue. Nothing more. TG will eventually get to it.
You suggestion on method is interesting and on the surface sounds like a reasonable approach.
As an aside, so how does that come into play in a case where I demonstrated a whole batch of scores were merely copied from some list on the internet, with no verification that the scores were possible, made sense, or even that the games themselves exist?
Is this in a dispute? If so, where? I remember a dispute where someone showed something like this and it was accepted...
So which community member contacted Ben Heck, flew Todd Rogers out there, and paid Ben for his services to build a rig to test on real hardware?
Twin Galaxies had to do that to verify and confirm the previous supplied definitive and objective claim evidence that the Dragster software was incapable of generating a 5.51 under normal conditions.
Every other measurement and verification of the claim had been reasonably exhausted. All that was left was to test the assertion on hardware and the mountain of evidence achieved and supplied to TG up to that moment warranted that confirmation.
So I am not understand what the issue is? That was a natural part and required for the confirmation of claim evidence assertion.
Jace, that would be very apparent in the video as to what the game is. Finding the correct platform if necessary and what track it's under would also be very easy to figure out. By watching the video. And then comparing it to the track it's submitted under. Isn't that literally the exact premise of how TGSAP is done? I think? Now I think I must be missing something.
And not to mention if the score is already in the database, that pretty much solves what rule set SHOULD be used. I think you need to adjudicate scores my man to see how easy it is confirm if things where done the right way or not. It's not a long process once you do it several thousand times.
Not sure what you are trying to say?
No one is saying that doing the work is impossible. All I ever said was that the process can be very time consuming and that a '2-3 minutes' notion concerning the idea of bringing all the old tapes online is a bit of an underestimation.
If you look at the link you provided, you will see that the dispute poll is actually closed.
When I wrote the verdict in the thread, I actually clicked the function to accept the dispute and close the poll and cause the score to be removed.
When I did this the site registered the event and I moved on.
It looks like the service that performed the backend function did not complete for some reason.
Many of the disputes that I went through processed just fine, apparently some did not. ( @admin staff please look at this)
I would think that it might be productive to just kindly let me know instead of your current choice of accusatory antagonism. I'm honestly not sure why you choose to come at me in this manner as I've certainly never done anything to you that I am aware of - but perhaps its a style thing, I don't know.
I have no reason to lie to anyone about anything. What do you think my motivation would be to do? What's my big "win?"
I'm just trying to do the best I can.
well it is my style, and i on rare occasion have regrest, but come on, how many things have just been blamed on programming, if programming is that bad (and i admit it might be) then pleas consider my suggestion of actually testing things. for example, when closing a dispute test and see if it happened
you have done nothing to me, my frustration isnt with jace hall the human being, this isnt personal, my frustration is with how the disputes are being handled.
As an aside, so how does that come into play in a case where I demonstrated a whole batch of scores were merely copied from some list on the internet, with no verification that the scores were possible, made sense, or even that the games themselves exist?
Is this in a dispute? If so, where? I remember a dispute where someone showed something like this and it was accepted...
In my first comment, second in the dispute, I provide a link to an archive.org record of an old high score list on the web that someone maintained. A page that contained simply a text form to submit a score - and many of the scores from that page are still present in the TG database. Some are still in dispute, others have already been removed. Given that multiple scores from that page have been demonstrated impossible, I felt it made it clear that everything on there should be treated as lacking verification and removed from TG.
i don't think we ever got beyond Dave saying "we'll send it to research" as far as that batch of scores goes.
But it does make me wonder what other sources there have been of scores just sucked into the TG database wholesale with little verification.
In my first comment, second in the dispute, I provide a link to an archive.org record of an old high score list on the web that someone maintained. A page that contained simply a text form to submit a score - and many of the scores from that page are still present in the TG database. Some are still in dispute, others have already been removed. Given that multiple scores from that page have been demonstrated impossible, I felt it made it clear that everything on there should be treated as lacking verification and removed from TG.
i don't think we ever got beyond Dave saying "we'll send it to research" as far as that batch of scores goes.
But it does make me wonder what other sources there have been of scores just sucked into the TG database wholesale with little verification.
I understand.
There would need to be a dispute claim established for each score under question and TG can not file dispute claims. A claim must come from someone and a removal record / process established.
I do agree with you about wondering in regard to other sources. All we can collectively do is slowly work though it all step by step over time. Which will happen.
There would need to be a dispute claim established for each score under question and TG can not file dispute claims. A claim must come from someone and a removal record / process established.
I do agree with you about wondering in regard to other sources. All we can collectively do is slowly work though it all step by step over time. Which will happen.
something very simliar has already happen with garret holland
i think the analogy is, if one player submits even one fake score, they lose them all since they're untrustworthy. well if one imported scoreboard has fake scores, and further is shown to have used the honor system, then it equally puts everything in doubt
garret and i believe lauren tyler disputed many, i disputed a few of the scores from that source. if you are seriously considering allowing that to be grounds for removal garret has the full list
There would need to be a dispute claim established for each score under question and TG can not file dispute claims. A claim must come from someone and a removal record / process established.
I do agree with you about wondering in regard to other sources. All we can collectively do is slowly work though it all step by step over time. Which will happen.
something very simliar has already happen with garret holland
i think the analogy is, if one player submits even one fake score, they lose them all since they're untrustworthy. well if one imported scoreboard has fake scores, and further is shown to have used the honor system, then it equally puts everything in doubt
garret and i believe lauren tyler disputed many, i disputed a few of the scores from that source. if you are seriously considering allowing that to be grounds for removal garret has the full list
11-04-2019 at 07:34 PM
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