Having to use muscle strength is part of the player "skill", but thats just my opinion.
semantics: i'd say its part of the "challenge" but not skill.
also, for marathons, where endurance is part of the training sure. i'll use tapper as an example, having those taps grind into your hands, versus a button makes a very big difference for a 24 hour game. however, for a 15 minute game its really not relevant.
Having to use muscle strength is part of the player "skill", but thats just my opinion.
you can be good at tapping (think manual 20hz) but itll be worthless if you dont know the game, same goes for autofire. i could boot up raiden 2 with 30hz autofire and get slammed because i dont know the game.
game knowledge is far more important than tapping and its why auto is a thing, because who wants to tap 30hz to multiloop raiden 1 when you could do the same with autofire with the same execution difficulty? what do you gain for using no auto, is it a bragging point? nobody really cares in shmup community if you use or dont use it it's the act of banning the use of it that baffles us lol, if anything that breaks competition more than allowing it
Activision designed their 2600 games, some with autofire, others not-seems to be based on the programmers idea of whether someone could hope to endure the button mashing or not.
Some Shmups have autofire, others don't.
Using it on a game that isn't inherently programmed for it being "wrong" just seems like one of those things everyone is expected to automatically know, IMO...
there's a really cool game from the early 80s called Exerion. it has to fire buttons. a single fire button that when used increases the bullets for the Auto fire button. The Auto fire button of course as a counter associated with it indicating how many bullets are left. really interesting aspect of this game is that the more accurate you are the more the targets are worth. they can go from being worth 100 points per hit to being worth 8000 points at a maximum. this of course it's difficult to achieve because every time you miss the score is actually cut in half. so being accurate is far more important than spraying bullets even though both options are available. I highly recommend you try out this game. it is difficult and has a steep learning curve but there is that addictive quality just like zookeeper where if you just keep going a little bit more you're going to get that amazing score run.
you can be good at tapping (think manual 20hz) but itll be worthless if you dont know the game, same goes for autofire. i could boot up raiden 2 with 30hz autofire and get slammed because i dont know the game.
game knowledge is far more important than tapping and its why auto is a thing, because who wants to tap 30hz to multiloop raiden 1 when you could do the same with autofire with the same execution difficulty? what do you gain for using no auto, is it a bragging point? nobody really cares in shmup community if you use or dont use it it's the act of banning the use of it that baffles us lol, if anything that breaks competition more than allowing it
I think the Shmup community may be still under the impression left by the old era of Twin Galaxies inflexible rule system (before I took over.)
Let me explain:
Autofire being banned is just a basic general default rule across all game tracks when there are no other specific rules stated about that issue within a specific game track competitive rule set.
The general rule needs to be this way because TG covers all games of all types and autofire in some games can have some negative competitive impact.
Historically, only official Twin Galaxies referees were allowed to create competitive rulesets for players to submit in (called game tracks.) The referees always enforced and assumed the general rule of no autofire.
This is probably why the Shmup community and many others have the impression they have.
The new era of Twin Galaxies has created the ability for its users to make their own competitive game rulesets to compete on.
This means that a user can make tracks with literally whatever rule specification they want to and Twin Galaxies is absolutely fine with autofire as long as the rules for the competitive game track state they allow it.
Anyone can set up those track rules here for any game and then compete on it.
Shmup players are more than welcome to do that here and use our TGSAP verification method as a potential secondary data back up to wherever they normally compete. TG will store all submitted shmup video performances and achievements - making them publicly viewable and available, free of things like copyright strikes and such for all time if a Shmup player/community found that useful.
In any case there is no issue with autofire really. That matter is just a matter of what rules you want to play under.
I could be wrong, but it appears as though some have mistaken my "meh ... those dudes sound like whiners" (which they do, tbh) as an "I think autofire should be illegal" declaration. What a fascinating translation, I must admit. I digress - idgaf one way or another if a player wants to use autofire for whatever reason the player deems appropriate. My only argument on that topic is that if you want to use autofire, and you want to submit a score where you have used it, simply submit the score to a track/category that clearly states autofire either via controller hardware or a software setting is acceptable, rather than within the same track/category where it is expected that the performances are done without such modifications.
Want autofire? I'm good with that. Want leeching? I'm good with that, too. Want save states? Sounds good to me. Make a separate track/category with caveats in the rule set for it. Apples to apples would be nice.
As a side note, I spent more than 4 hours manually rapid firing on SW Empire Strikes Back for the 2600 and over 12 hours in one sitting on Defender, and I didn't get carpal tunnel or damage to my hand or fingers in any other fashion.
I know, I know ... it's an extraordinarily unreasonable expectation/solution, right? :-/
"The biggest number 1 scrub identifier for SHMUPSs is if someone says autofire is cheating"
1. I don't recall seeing anyone here suggest that using autofire when allowed is cheating.
2. Even if there were, and it were I that said it (which I didn't and wouldn't), okay ... so, I'm a "scrub", whatever the hell that is, I suck at video games, and am incapable of hanging with the big dogs I guess LOL! Color me unconcerned. ¯_(o.o)_/¯
Originally Posted by EVN
Can they? Not without some narrow mindedness from adjudicators that's for sure:
I'm pretty sure that the irrelevant gripe of 2 or 3 adjudicators out of the couple of hundred necessary for that submission to have been accepted (which it was) isn't indicative of an environment where adjudicator unreasonableness is an epidemic. (For the record, I, too, adjudicated and commented on that submission.)
I believe jace meant we can make our own rule sets on new tracks not change rule sets on old. Though if enough adjudicators agreed I guess even old rule sets could be changed but then all it takes is one person to challenge and then admin needs to convinced the rule change is ok
Dave actually changed a Krazy Kong rule just so that the sub that broke the rule would now be ok, so changing rules is much harder than making a new track but not impossible
LOL JJT in that thread asking for Pearl to show the PCB on a PC game. Then when someone points out it is on PC he still can't tell even though there is a camera pointed at his hands and keyboard. Of course followed by countless pointless screenshots that add nothing to adjudication. That's one of your top adjudicators TG. People outside the website and even new members see this sort of thing and it discourages them from participating. Even when someone makes their own rules, follows the rules, and properly submits they are still met with this kind of thing.
dont forget the ps4 garegga run where it got dq'd for being a replay even tho its impossible to cheat a replay
Yeah about that... we have seen plenty of people upload replays and old runs to get them in the TGSAP system. McAllister is one that comes to mind. All of those went through no problem. The adjudication process is just so inconsistent.
... JJT ... That's one of your top adjudicators TG.
I dunno, man .. that's kind of a subjective assessment. I suppose it would depend on one's definition of "top adjudicator", which is also subjective.
Originally Posted by Ninglendo
.People outside the website and even new members see this sort of thing and it discourages them from participating.
I was at one point on the "outside", and then subsequently a "new member", and it has not discouraged me from robustly participating. I saw what was going on from the beginning, and it wasn't enough to discourage me. Granted, that's merely anecdotal, but a fact nonetheless, and one that I haven't really seen inconsistent with the existential environment. In my experience, what turns off new members is two-fold: 1. people being d!ckbags to each other in the submission and social threads; and 2. No shred of evidence (much less proof) that some old scores were ever achieved, yet, they remain "because that's how it was done".
Originally Posted by Ninglendo
Even when someone makes their own rules, follows the rules, and properly submits they are still met with this kind of thing.
For all intents and purposes, TG (much like all other gaming-related websites) is an open social platform. I have never seen an open social platform without rabblerousing, sh!t-talking, contrarian malcontents putting in their two cents worth. Not once ... not ever. I'm not entirely clear why the expectation is for TG to not also have a handful of these types when literally every other social platform that has ever existed throughout the history of mankind, internet-based or otherwise, has had them.
LOL JJT in that thread asking for Pearl to show the PCB on a PC game. Then when someone points out it is on PC he still can't tell even though there is a camera pointed at his hands and keyboard. Of course followed by countless pointless screenshots that add nothing to adjudication. That's one of your top adjudicators TG. People outside the website and even new members see this sort of thing and it discourages them from participating. Even when someone makes their own rules, follows the rules, and properly submits they are still met with this kind of thing.
Hey man jjt is an expert you’re not listening. I mean he told zallard he could beat him at punchour that’s gotta count for something
However no joking I’ve swapped opinion on the Dwayne Richard fast and furious time. Dwayne needs to respond to that
1. I don't recall seeing anyone here suggest that using autofire when allowed is cheating.
2. Even if there were, and it were I that said it (which I didn't and wouldn't), okay ... so, I'm a "scrub", whatever the hell that is, I suck at video games, and am incapable of hanging with the big dogs I guess LOL! Color me unconcerned. ¯_(o.o)_/¯
I'm pretty sure that the irrelevant gripe of 2 or 3 adjudicators out of the couple of hundred necessary for that submission to have been accepted (which it was) isn't indicative of an environment where adjudicator unreasonableness is an epidemic. (For the record, I, too, adjudicated and commented on that submission.)
I didn't even bring up auto fire from that podcast - you did. Then beat your chest about Carpal Tunnel as a badge of honor.
Autofire is just a small part of what is discussed in that thread and for anyone who hasn't listened, they don't even advocate it for all games - mostly its for games that were designed for it!
Originally Posted by Pearl2hu
dont forget the ps4 garegga run where it got dq'd for being a replay even tho its impossible to cheat a replay
They spoke at length about this: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/197428-Playstation-4-PSN-Battle-Garegga-Rev-2016-Single-Player-Arcade-Mode-10-176-400-Eric-O-Brien
Now this is exactly the kind of ridiculousness that excludes whole communities. If you want to adjudicate Galaga this way - go for it! But the way this adjudication went is exactly why TG is floundering. Especially when the ESI scoreboard is dominated with direct capture android submissions. I am sad that I missed that adjudication and if I could dispute a rejected decision, 100% I would.
You all know who you are that voted that submission down - IMO you are a problem. That and every time a new player submits their first score they are met with wikipedia links about their game from the resident "expert". It's embarrassing to see and even more embarrassing that no admin has put a stop to it.
That and every time a new player submits their first score they are met with wikipedia links about their game from the resident "expert". It's embarrassing to see and even more embarrassing that no admin has put a stop to it.
In Pearl's submission linked above he seriously posted links to pirate the game as part of his page filling screenshots.
What thread are you reading? Because it damned sure can't be this one.
Originally Posted by EVN
I didn't even bring up auto fire from that podcast - you did.
Uh ... okay ... but my counterresponse to you was regarding your statement (not theirs) and your implying, by virtue of your quote, that such was being suggested. If you weren't implying as much (that I was either calling them cheaters for wanting to use autofire *or* that what they said was correct, in that those who would call autofire cheating are inherently "scrubs", whatever the hell that even means), then why the quote in response to me calling them whiners? I never said concern for carpal tunnel is unwarranted, and I never said one cannot possibly get carpal tunnel as the result of repetitive hand/wrist motion. "Overly" is an adverb, and it does indeed mean something. Nobody is demanding that you acknowledge the adverb's meaning or the context of my statement, but if you wish to be critical, perhaps the ability to first identify context would likely be beneficial ... for you, that is.
Originally Posted by EVN
Then beat your chest about Carpal Tunnel as a badge of honor.
Huh? Methinks you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what I wrote. You can always scroll up and look again ... or not, idgaf either way, tbh. Nothing about carpal tunnel is a badge of honor, nor did I say anything that even remotely resembles such an attitude. I clearly stated that I would wear as a badge of honor the acknowledgement from whiners like the two dudes in the podcast revealing they don't like TGs members (like myself) for committing the egregious sin of being a TG member. I'm sorry you either missed the context or didn't miss it, but merely poorly constructed your "beat your chest" sentence, dude. Don't know what else to tell ya.
Originally Posted by EVN
Autofire is just a small part of what is discussed in that thread and for anyone who hasn't listened, they don't even advocate it for all games - mostly its for games that were designed for it!
This statement does not contradict a single assertion I've made so far. Seeing someone feeling the need to add this clarification when nothing to the contrary was asserted is quite peculiar.
11-04-2019 at 07:34 PM
The Evener thanked this post
Email Wall Entry
Please Log in to comment on this post
Pearl2hu
Joonas
Snowflake
Pearl2hu
Roger Edwin Blair 111
datagod
Jace Hall
EVN
Garrett Holland
Garrett Holland
Snowflake
Ninglendo
Pearl2hu
Ninglendo
Garrett Holland
Snowflake
lexmark
EVN
Ninglendo
Garrett Holland