... for everyone else who has expressed concern about potential and new members not sticking around ... ^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE is what discourages new members from sticking around, not JJT and his 4,582,103,483,293 screenshots plastered all over everyone's submission page, not 2 or 3 usual suspects talking ignorance during the TGSAP process, and not 1 or 2 goofballs whining about a 11 quintillion score on Gigawing not having a PCB shown when no PCBs for that game have ever existed.
i just relooked at gigawings @Jace Hall there is a concept here you need to adress as it somewhat contraicts your previous point of people being able to create new tracks
a few times now, a track has been created to be cros platform. if an arcade uses a pc for example, theres an argument to create the track and allow either platform. natually due to how the system works it still has to be filed under one platform. as a result, depsite the track rules expliclty allowing pc to be used an argument follows about not letting people use pc
it would great if you could issue a ruling. i'm not asking you to tell people how to vote on this particular sub. i'm asking you to issue a ruling if track creators have the right to create a track that is cross platform.
you can be good at tapping (think manual 20hz) but itll be worthless if you dont know the game, same goes for autofire. i could boot up raiden 2 with 30hz autofire and get slammed because i dont know the game.
game knowledge is far more important than tapping and its why auto is a thing, because who wants to tap 30hz to multiloop raiden 1 when you could do the same with autofire with the same execution difficulty? what do you gain for using no auto, is it a bragging point? nobody really cares in shmup community if you use or dont use it it's the act of banning the use of it that baffles us lol, if anything that breaks competition more than allowing it
I agree with you that a player must know the game/patterns to get the full point potential. However, some of those strategies aren't nearly as easy to implement, or even possible without the use of autofire because, quite simply, you are killing things faster than you can without it. Faster kills means less enemies/bullets to dodge. The game is therefore made easier. The games are played completely differently using autofire vs no autofire. You take away that autofire, you aren't killing an enemy/boss as fast, creating a different situation than before when you did use autofire. You know how many people have beaten games using autofire but can't even beat the 2nd boss without it? Lots.
I don't think you are saying using auto fire and not using auto fire produce the same strategies and movement patterns, but I also am not sure if you know that either? Of course, certain shmups will make my above comments inaccurate because not all shmups are "how fast can you shoot". Games like 1943 are insanely easier with autofire. 1943 spawns more enemies the faster you kill them from each section of the map to the next. I know every section of the game and where and when the next group of enemies will spawn. I've meaning to post a score for the game but I keep dying on the last battleship scenes...because **** gets real with no auto fire. I've never come close to an autofire score. I think I am a better than average tapper and hit 14-16 taps a second. I can do it for hours, but once those enemies start getting stronger and it takes a half second longer to kill them, things start to change and you have to dodge more rather than simply move from this point to kill this group then move to this point to kill this group. Autofire is played one way, no autofire is played a different way.
With autofire it's just like speedrunning a game IMO. The person who knows where to be and at what time will maximize their points. With no autofire, you need to know where to go and have the ability to kill enemies to match your movement. I love using autofire, but when you want to compare skill vs skill on a game, finger tapping is a big factor in that. You and I could do the exact same pattern for a game, and I guarantee you smoke my ass using autofire because there is no way I will ever keep up with your kills. I wouldn't even accept a challenge just for fun if you get to use auto and I don't. Again, of course there are games where that won't be a factor. I'm simply referring to the games that do.
I guess if you want to call it bragging, then sure. It really does show who has the most skill when it comes to the game. The competition isn't broken because the use of auto fire isn't allowed. I will say that a game is more fun to play with autofire because you know you are going to **** that game up if you know where to go. Now that is fun!
There is nothing wrong with using autofire, just like there isn't anything wrong with not using it. They are two completely different play styles and both deserve to have their own separate tracks. I've watch your videos and god damn you know what you are doing. They are fun as hell to watch, BUT I bet if you didn't have autofire on them, you aren't doing that run even close to how you normally would. I'm not calling you out or anything, I just can't believe the shmup community doesn't recognize both sides of autofire and non autofire and why it's implemented here.
However, some of those strategies aren't nearly as easy to implement, or even possible without the use of autofire because, quite simply, you are killing things faster than you can without it. Faster kills means less enemies/bullets to dodge. The game is therefore made easier. The games are played completely differently using autofire vs no autofire.
no auto vs auto is a marginal difference usually, 30hz is doable by a human and is rarely actually needed for legitimate strats, hell no auto is better than auto at times, especially games like 1943 as you said; where there is a shot limit. its why star force autofire doesnt really matter past the 10,000,000 mark because at that point its about endurance, and the use of autofire doesnt actually make the game easier or harder at that point.
Originally Posted by thegamer1185
I don't think you are saying using auto fire and not using auto fire produce the same strategies and movement patterns, but I also am not sure if you know that either? Of course, certain shmups will make my above comments inaccurate because not all shmups are "how fast can you shoot". Games like 1943 are insanely easier with autofire. 1943 spawns more enemies the faster you kill them from each section of the map to the next. I know every section of the game and where and when the next group of enemies will spawn. I've meaning to post a score for the game but I keep dying on the last battleship scenes...because **** gets real with no auto fire. I've never come close to an autofire score.
1943 is a good example of this, but not to the extent you claim. autofire does make a *clear* easier, nowhere near insanely easier. But I reckon for an actual really good score (wr tier, 4mil+ or so.) itd be rarely utilized to its full potential except probably on the last stage just because its a big difficulty spike.
**** gets real there even with autofire, its why its still ranked rather high on a difficulty chart even with auto.
also its why we shmup players actually do split/mark our runs as Auto ON, or Auto OFF, because it does make a difference in some games and its good to just note if you used it or not.
Originally Posted by thegamer1185
I think I am a better than average tapper and hit 14-16 taps a second. I can do it for hours, but once those enemies start getting stronger and it takes a half second longer to kill them, things start to change and you have to dodge more rather than simply move from this point to kill this group then move to this point to kill this group. Autofire is played one way, no autofire is played a different way.
again, if you can do 16 per second then 30hz doesnt make too much a difference in terms of damage, especially when you're far away from enemies in that game. its why raiden vulcan is so strong with autofire, because at 30hz you can pointblank for speedkills, and for loop 9; you cant really do it without autofire any more.
autofire and no auto are played the same until the games very peak (with some exceptions, of course.), in which certain tricks and scoring patterns are just not possible without it. I reckon the current 1943 wr could be beatable without autofire, even tho the current record uses it.
Originally Posted by thegamer1185
With autofire it's just like speedrunning a game IMO. The person who knows where to be and at what time will maximize their points. With no autofire, you need to know where to go and have the ability to kill enemies to match your movement.
thats called routing, and you do it with and without autofire to the same level in shmups, do you know what you're talking about?
Originally Posted by thegamer1185
I love using autofire, but when you want to compare skill vs skill on a game, finger tapping is a big factor in that. You and I could do the exact same pattern for a game, and I guarantee you smoke my ass using autofire because there is no way I will ever keep up with your kills.
1 : if we used the same pattern then in theory we would score identically, and in the case of 1943, its rng.
2: why would i use your patterns when i could make my own thats better suited for autofire safety and can abuse bullet doppler? thats the joy of shmups, making your own routes and manipulating the game to its fullest.
Originally Posted by thegamer1185
I guess if you want to call it bragging, then sure. It really does show who has the most skill when it comes to the game. The competition isn't broken because the use of auto fire isn't allowed. I will say that a game is more fun to play with autofire because you know you are going to **** that game up if you know where to go. Now that is fun!
most skill is about knowledge and execution, not about if you can tap at 30hz for this specific section. its why the mushihimesama maniac wr is rumored to use like 20 buttons because of how many weird combinations of autofire you need to score that game correctly, its possible to do without but god can you imagine. again its why we separate auto and no auto.
and yes, competition is a bit broken without allowing autofire because it gates people that actually have their hands damaged or just physically cant tap at 15hz like you and I can, allowing auto evens the playfield, lets everyone go to their full potential.
Originally Posted by thegamer1185
I've watch your videos and god damn you know what you are doing. They are fun as hell to watch, BUT I bet if you didn't have autofire on them, you aren't doing that run even close to how you normally would. I'm not calling you out or anything, I just can't believe the shmup community doesn't recognize both sides of autofire and non autofire and why it's implemented here.
none of my runs on this website use autofire unless its in the game by default. when i play for runs off this website i use a different emulator and auto + macros to actually push the game further instead of holding myself back.
shmup community recognizes both sides as ive said countless times, we allow both and we only question someones sanity when they say autofire is cheating or it ruins the competition. we play the way the japanese players do, utilizing everything to push the game to its limits, outside of invincibility glitches or infinite milks or something like that (hint hint, the un squadron arcade score here.)
the collective shmup community doesnt understand how so many rules for these games are butchered and stripping away how they were intended to be played.
have a good day im going back to my infinite life practice on pink sweets.
I say that if the game requires autofire, it will include autofire. Yes mashing a button for hours on end is painful and not exactly a skill. That being said if a community of players say it is OK, I am not going to challenge them. On TG, tracks should specifically allow it and state it. If not, it is not allowed.
i just relooked at gigawings @Jace Hall there is a concept here you need to adress as it somewhat contraicts your previous point of people being able to create new tracks
a few times now, a track has been created to be cros platform. if an arcade uses a pc for example, theres an argument to create the track and allow either platform. natually due to how the system works it still has to be filed under one platform. as a result, depsite the track rules expliclty allowing pc to be used an argument follows about not letting people use pc
it would great if you could issue a ruling. i'm not asking you to tell people how to vote on this particular sub. i'm asking you to issue a ruling if track creators have the right to create a track that is cross platform.
TG Track specific competitive rules always override any and all TG general competitive rules they may conflict with.
Cross platform is fine if that’s what was specified.
If needed in the future TG can create a platform category called “Cross-Platform” if it makes things simpler but in the meanwhile members should not feel restricted by the TG general competitive rule set when creating their track specific rule set definitions.
TG Track specific competitive rules always override any and all TG general competitive rules they may conflict with.
Cross platform is fine if that’s what was specified.
If needed in the future TG can create a platform category called “Cross-Platform” if it makes things simpler but in the meanwhile members should not feel restricted by the TG general competitive rule set when creating their track specific rule set definitions.
@redelf tagging you since this might be relevant in a future debate on one of your scores
Sorry you had to read a lot. Bad news ahead. Pressing a button as quickly as possible for hours is a unique skill. It only hurts if you haven't trained yourself to do it for those extended periods of time. Just like any other muscle in your body. Everyone can do it, some do it better. Just like people are smarter than others. You are all about route running and rightfully so and that would seem to apply here (not that a non intelligent person couldn't figure it, but you get my point) If the games you play already have autofire as a default, of course it would be allowed. It's programmed into the game. Where autofire isn't allowed is in games where input speed can affect the outcome of the score. Track and Field is probably most notable. If autofire was just allowed for everything because why not, @Fly and his insane tapping he uses would be pretty much a waste of a talent. Video game wise anyway.
I have never encountered a scenario in 1943 where autofire was not better and it's because of how the game spawns enemies in each section. The sections are very noticeable if you are familiar with the game. Not sure how to say it but I'll try anyway. In the first level alone you only need to play about 20 seconds to test this. Play from the start to the first small black bomber. First attempt kill everything but the bomber, second attempt don't kill anything but try to count as many of the airplanes as possible. If you kill every enemy as fast as possible, you would have 64 mini planes appear - 6400pts. If you don't kill a single one up to that same point, only 45 spawn - 4500pts. That's the first 20 seconds. If you actually attempt this, the first 4 enemies are dropped shortly after the orange planes appear.
Top image is what it looks like killing everything. I didn't kill anything after killing the orange planes. Second image is not killing at all. It's worth noting that having a Weapon Up Icon on screen also counts as an enemy so it seems. I believe 12 enemies are allowed to be on screen at one time. This also applies for sub world screens with the boats. This can be tested in level one as well. If you don't kill the turrets on the gun ships, they will prevent enemies from spawning.
Takes about an hour and half to complete the game. You do the math. It's not RNG. Does the same the next section, for all levels the whole game. Therefore, you have missed the opportunity to kill them because you couldn't kill them fast enough. Early stages, as you say, isn't a problem. Things take less hits to kill, mainly bombers and gunships. It's the last several stages where the spawn rate is much higher and you have multiple bombers appearing that take many more shots to kill. That means less killing, less spawns. A fast tapper can not do what autofire does. Being close enough isn't the same as exactly the same. Tons of points are lost every level.
The best level to show that this is happening is in level 11. You must kill the enemy bombers as quickly as possible or you will not get the 100% boss kill bonus as shown here. In fact, only way to get 100% on this mission (for me anyway, and apparently I'm tapping at a high enough rate to "not make a difference" when compared to autofire) without autofire is to actually crash into a few of the bombers to kill them.
So, yes, it makes a huge difference in your score. Not to mention many more bullets are now being shot at you because you aren't killing them as fast and could potentially keep you from moving across the screen where enemies are spawning. Yes, I know you can say that's where your route pattern comes in but my argument is that your need for a route pattern is significantly easier when you can simply strafe back and forth with SP 2 the entire game using auto fire except on ships and bombers. At which point you get as close as possible and take them out much quicker than you could not using turbo. You can claim I'm not an expert, but feel free to test it for yourself. I've attempted this record a few times (non autofire of course) and I get to greedy on the final couple mini ships thus killing myself. If I don't kill one of those turrets, for me personally I just as well restart because it's not the best I can do.
I thought I made it clear that I fully understand what I had said in my last post is definitely not going to apply to all shooters, probably not even a quarter of shooters. Also, it is sadly unfortunate for those who may have hand issues or other disabilities that may prevent them from playing games at a higher level. If you think not allowing auto fire makes it broken, I guess you are correct. They can still compete to do as best they can if they wanted for fun.
I have to agree with you again, if all things being equal skill wise, the person with the best "route" will come out ahead 100% of the time. I can't really think of any situation where that remark isn't true. Racing games, planning financing, speed running, having a game plan for your next basketball game. However, you possibly being smarter than me/others could allow you to know and/or understand the patterns better allowing you more time to react. Could your being smart not mean the competition is "broken"? How do you intend to amend that so we can compete with you? Or is that an advantage you intend to keep (why wouldn't you) because you took the time to practice and learn it and you just get it where others don't? It's impossible to amend peoples mental "skills" and it just wouldn't make sense why you wouldn't use everything you know to your advantage. Some people are smart, some people's muscles/reflexes are better. So your full potential isn't the same as mine or others. We play the games how we choose. None of those ways is incorrect. We all have advantages and disadvantages. Auto fire eliminates an advantage for the fast tappers and eliminates the disadvantage for the slow tappers. So that leaves the brains and reflexes. Can't change genetics so you got your hands full figuring out how to keep things on a level playing field.
TG has player choice for racing games. You can use either manual or automatic. This should be the same for shmups. The arcade has the choice for both so it should be player choice.
This is another option... Create a track that is player choice and watch people downvote it for exercising your right of player choice.
Sorry you had to read a lot. Bad news ahead. Pressing a button as quickly as possible for hours is a unique skill. It only hurts if you haven't trained yourself to do it for those extended periods of time. Just like any other muscle in your body. Everyone can do it, some do it better. Just like people are smarter than others. You are all about route running and rightfully so and that would seem to apply here (not that a non intelligent person couldn't figure it, but you get my point) If the games you play already have autofire as a default, of course it would be allowed. It's programmed into the game. Where autofire isn't allowed is in games where input speed can affect the outcome of the score. Track and Field is probably most notable. If autofire was just allowed for everything because why not, @Fly and his insane tapping he uses would be pretty much a waste of a talent. Video game wise anyway.
I have never encountered a scenario in 1943 where autofire was not better and it's because of how the game spawns enemies in each section. The sections are very noticeable if you are familiar with the game. Not sure how to say it but I'll try anyway. In the first level alone you only need to play about 20 seconds to test this. Play from the start to the first small black bomber. First attempt kill everything but the bomber, second attempt don't kill anything but try to count as many of the airplanes as possible. If you kill every enemy as fast as possible, you would have 64 mini planes appear - 6400pts. If you don't kill a single one up to that same point, only 45 spawn - 4500pts. That's the first 20 seconds. If you actually attempt this, the first 4 enemies are dropped shortly after the orange planes appear.
Top image is what it looks like killing everything. I didn't kill anything after killing the orange planes. Second image is not killing at all. It's worth noting that having a Weapon Up Icon on screen also counts as an enemy so it seems. I believe 12 enemies are allowed to be on screen at one time. This also applies for sub world screens with the boats. This can be tested in level one as well. If you don't kill the turrets on the gun ships, they will prevent enemies from spawning.
Takes about an hour and half to complete the game. You do the math. It's not RNG. Does the same the next section, for all levels the whole game. Therefore, you have missed the opportunity to kill them because you couldn't kill them fast enough. Early stages, as you say, isn't a problem. Things take less hits to kill, mainly bombers and gunships. It's the last several stages where the spawn rate is much higher and you have multiple bombers appearing that take many more shots to kill. That means less killing, less spawns. A fast tapper can not do what autofire does. Being close enough isn't the same as exactly the same. Tons of points are lost every level.
The best level to show that this is happening is in level 11. You must kill the enemy bombers as quickly as possible or you will not get the 100% boss kill bonus as shown here. In fact, only way to get 100% on this mission (for me anyway, and apparently I'm tapping at a high enough rate to "not make a difference" when compared to autofire) without autofire is to actually crash into a few of the bombers to kill them.
So, yes, it makes a huge difference in your score. Not to mention many more bullets are now being shot at you because you aren't killing them as fast and could potentially keep you from moving across the screen where enemies are spawning. Yes, I know you can say that's where your route pattern comes in but my argument is that your need for a route pattern is significantly easier when you can simply strafe back and forth with SP 2 the entire game using auto fire except on ships and bombers. At which point you get as close as possible and take them out much quicker than you could not using turbo. You can claim I'm not an expert, but feel free to test it for yourself. I've attempted this record a few times (non autofire of course) and I get to greedy on the final couple mini ships thus killing myself. If I don't kill one of those turrets, for me personally I just as well restart because it's not the best I can do.
I thought I made it clear that I fully understand what I had said in my last post is definitely not going to apply to all shooters, probably not even a quarter of shooters. Also, it is sadly unfortunate for those who may have hand issues or other disabilities that may prevent them from playing games at a higher level. If you think not allowing auto fire makes it broken, I guess you are correct. They can still compete to do as best they can if they wanted for fun.
I have to agree with you again, if all things being equal skill wise, the person with the best "route" will come out ahead 100% of the time. I can't really think of any situation where that remark isn't true. Racing games, planning financing, speed running, having a game plan for your next basketball game. However, you possibly being smarter than me/others could allow you to know and/or understand the patterns better allowing you more time to react. Could your being smart not mean the competition is "broken"? How do you intend to amend that so we can compete with you? Or is that an advantage you intend to keep (why wouldn't you) because you took the time to practice and learn it and you just get it where others don't? It's impossible to amend peoples mental "skills" and it just wouldn't make sense why you wouldn't use everything you know to your advantage. Some people are smart, some people's muscles/reflexes are better. So your full potential isn't the same as mine or others. We play the games how we choose. None of those ways is incorrect. We all have advantages and disadvantages. Auto fire eliminates an advantage for the fast tappers and eliminates the disadvantage for the slow tappers. So that leaves the brains and reflexes. Can't change genetics so you got your hands full figuring out how to keep things on a level playing field.
TG has player choice for racing games. You can use either manual or automatic. This should be the same for shmups. The arcade has the choice for both so it should be player choice.
This is another option... Create a track that is player choice and watch people downvote it for exercising your right of player choice.
Except in racing games 90% of the time using manual gears gives you a faster time, thus rewarding the skill to use manual gears. Automatic is easier to play with, but most of the time you sacrifice potential time for it. Kinda reversed situation compared to autofire.
11-04-2019 at 07:34 PM
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